Feral Druid Blog post discussion

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Zstriker
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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Zstriker » Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:38 am

There lots of possibilites that could be helpfull on our current state in game, if you can't think of any right now then it doesn't mean they are not exist, yet blizzard chose to ignore problems at the moment and really on next expansion.
Tunning is not only buff that ability nerf this one. We are also comparing ourself to other certain classes, if they are too good at smth and we are doing not enough here, maybe the problem not on our side, or even same could be said about some in-game encounter mechanics. Ways of fixing can be achieved from many side.
They are also choose another way of trying to not nerf things at all, to not make people sad, which also give balance issues

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Polihayse
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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Polihayse » Sun Dec 13, 2015 2:46 pm

Were there any specs that required no buffs or nerfs this expansion?

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Tinderhoof
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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Tinderhoof » Sun Dec 13, 2015 3:08 pm

Required? Or didn't get any? Cause there were a few who got buffs who didn't need any. I don't think hunters got any for the specs they use in PVE. Mages only got frost buffs if I recall.

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Istaro » Sun Dec 13, 2015 7:53 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:
Istaro wrote:A straightforward way of doing that might be to make FB do a lot more damage on targets that don't have any of your bleeds on them. Not enough to make it a good idea to not bleed the boss or an enemy player, of course.
While this may seem like a good idea how much would you buff FB? I ask because if you want to cast it on a short lived add you only get one shot at it. Do you think FB can be powerful enough with one shot out making it be better than Rip?
Good question. But I think the answer is yes if Rake and Rip together constitute a high enough proportion of our boss damage (i.e. nerf Shred and autoattacks if necessary).

Certainly one supercharged (by the lack of bleeds) FB on even a low-health priority add is not going to one-shot it—or shouldn't, anyway—but I suspect it could be made to do enough damage to constitute sufficient contribution. That is, if a feral keeps an eye on their DBM timers, times it so they hit 5 combo points just before a short-lived priority add spawns, hits it with a big FB (possibly up to three FBs if Elune's Guidance is a thing), and then goes back to the boss, they will have done their share of damage to that add.

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Tinderhoof
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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Tinderhoof » Mon Dec 14, 2015 2:08 am

Let me give you a real world example.

Doomfire Spirit is THE must kill add now of the expansion. It has ~10 million health on mythic. With BiS (742 ilvl) gear save WF/sockets I hit with a 5 point 50 energy FB (crit) for about ~230k. Back when I was 720ilvl during progression my FB hit for about ~190k. So how much harder would FB have to hit in your opinion for us to be competitive with a 1 shot burst?

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Vularo » Mon Dec 14, 2015 3:00 am

Tinderhoof wrote: The rotation needs some help to be able to swap rolls from single target to burst and back. We don't have that capability now.
whats with the simple Idea to bring savage roar into a bleed dmg cooldown?
example:

increase dmg of all bleeds by X and let all active bleeds tick Y% faster. 1,5min CD.

then we would have a dmg cd for our +-60%dmg- the bleeds. currently we only have dmg increase for direct attacks (berserk /inca - i dont count here rake because dmg boost get removed?) and bloodytalons are more a rotational cd, but not a burst CD.would also fit the 100 talent tree well: SR for burst, talons for rotation, and MoC for braindead rng.
our maindmg are bleeds, but we have no dmg CD for it. would also be great in aoe: trash->sr-->bloody slash

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Zstriker » Mon Dec 14, 2015 3:56 am

Polihayse wrote:Were there any specs that required no buffs or nerfs this expansion?
as far as I remember I think they almost not touch healers this expansion at all

for switching to adds I find the lack of energy to hit buttons, so I could get CP fast (CP building was fine coz of crit build this expanson) yet energy we lack(same with aoe can't spam those buttons)... energy regen is values by haste - it is low, that also lead us into another akward moment of pooling energy bar increasing downtime, or from other side - ability cost could be lowered a bit

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by RareBeast » Mon Dec 14, 2015 6:21 am

Zstriker wrote: for switching to adds I find the lack of energy to hit buttons, so I could get CP fast (CP building was fine coz of crit build this expanson) yet energy we lack(same with aoe can't spam those buttons)... energy regen is values by haste - it is low, that also lead us into another akward moment of pooling energy bar increasing downtime, or from other side - ability cost could be lowered a bit
Agree with this. Often I found myself waiting for the energy to cast thrash on adds that popped up and by the time I had enough energy the adds were half dead and the thrash gets 1-2 ticks off at most. Of course this has been exacerbated by our set bonuses "forcing" us to stop pooling energy like we used to.

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Tinderhoof » Mon Dec 14, 2015 6:39 am

Vularo wrote:our maindmg are bleeds, but we have no dmg CD for it.
This is one of the reasons I feel we have been painted into a corner design wise. Our Mastery only touches half of our damage, and cooldowns only touch the other half. While both sides of the rotation require each other, they don't really interact together. Makes it hard to add additional abilities because it will mess with the flow. This leads to the stagnation we see.

As for your suggestion they already have a talent that speeds bleeds up all the time. Adding another on top of that wouldn't really make sense. A cooldown like this would still be rotational. While it will certainly buff damage during it's duration it isn't going to be huge burst, and if the target has to die quick, spending 3 GCD's to get all 3 bleeds up first before hitting the cooldown won't exactly be very efficient.

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Tinderhoof » Mon Dec 14, 2015 6:43 am

RareBeast wrote:Of course this has been exacerbated by our set bonuses "forcing" us to stop pooling energy like we used to
Ya good god that bonus can't be gone quick enough. Just so contradictory to our design. Creates and encourages poor play, and makes our flow suddenly more dependent on RNG. Just crappy all round.

Honestly I don't think reducing ability costs will improve our play though. Sure we hit things more often, but that is going to throw out pooling as a mechanic because we won't have to manage our energy anymore.

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Whitepaw » Mon Dec 14, 2015 6:58 am

I think it's interesting that most of this discussion still resolves around the problems apparent in WoD. I would like our discussion to be more far-reaching than just "We want competitive AoE" and for or against Savage Roar.

At this point of the development cycle, we should discuss the meta-game, i.e. how are the engagements designed. Should we proceed with having a lot of adds? Should we proceed with not having to use CC in PvE fights? How about off-healing, should that be competitive? How about off-tanking, how necessary should that be?

Right now, the worst part of WoW PvE gameplay is that it's so one-dimensional. As a dps, you fill a dps-slot - and you basically do damage. That's it. So when we give feedback to gameplay and the Feral spec, we focus on that one aspect, doing damage. We also only measure by that one metric: How much dps we do.

This is against the whole design idea behind the Druid class. We have the tools to do so much more, and so do the other classes. Every class can do some CC, off-healing or off-tanking - Druids are in the unique position of being able to (potentially) do them all. We are not in TBC, where only a few classes could bring the needed CC abilities. Now, all classes bring these, but the PvE gameplay has been flattened (some would say "dumbed down") so it's not needed anymore to succeed!

I would like our Druid community to focus our feedback to the devs on this aspect: How to make the PvE gameplay more interesting and avoid this dps comparison race to the bottom. After that's done, we can have our AoE discussions and try to decide if Savage Roar should be changed :lol:

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Polihayse » Mon Dec 14, 2015 5:14 pm

In order to make PvE more interesting, you need to have more interactions between abilities in the spec. This creates more complex and creative gameplay, which is fun. The problem that I see with this is that not a lot of people can handle complicated gameplay. I've been making the argument for a while that the default UI is fucking terrible and needs to be fixed because it acts as a barrier to the average player which does not allow for more interesting design in the game. If people had a way of getting all of the necessary information, then I believe they would be able to handle the more complicated/satisfying gameplay that is the result of the interesting interactions within a spec. Look at the difference between today's default UI and vanilla default UI. There is almost no difference. Blizzard did not really know what they were doing with their own game back then and this alone is almost enough of a reason for why it needs to change. However, people get settled into their inefficient playstyles and clicking muscle memory and see any changes in regard to UI or playstyle as a downgrade because they do not understand, or because it takes away from the nostalgia aspect of the game that is the reason for them to buy the new expansion, play for 2 weeks, and then quit again. It is very sad.

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Istaro » Mon Dec 14, 2015 10:14 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:Let me give you a real world example.

Doomfire Spirit is THE must kill add now of the expansion. It has ~10 million health on mythic. With BiS (742 ilvl) gear save WF/sockets I hit with a 5 point 50 energy FB (crit) for about ~230k. Back when I was 720ilvl during progression my FB hit for about ~190k. So how much harder would FB have to hit in your opinion for us to be competitive with a 1 shot burst?
Hmm, let's see. Thanks for the numbers. I've never done mythic since my guild is a five-person friend guild, but there are generally 13 DPS in mythic, right? When I said "their share of damage to that add", I was thinking "health divided by number of DPS", so each needs to do an average of 770k to the spirit. So even without Elune's Guidance, just having FB do double damage on targets with no (own) bleeds (with a damage reduction in PVP if necessary) would bring us reasonably close to the required average, taking into account that it's ok for us to be somewhat less if we're doing more boss damage. And if that add is proving to be the bottleneck, you could sacrifice some more boss damage to do two FBs, maybe even with the intervening builders going onto the boss, which Balance affinity's passive would help with.

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Treeba » Mon Dec 14, 2015 10:21 pm

Whitepaw wrote: I would like our Druid community to focus our feedback to the devs on this aspect: How to make the PvE gameplay more interesting and avoid this dps comparison race to the bottom. After that's done, we can have our AoE discussions and try to decide if Savage Roar should be changed :lol:
I agree with everything you're saying, but I don't think it's a change we're going to ever really see. Look at the launch cata heroics. They weren't even that hard and there was a huge cry for nerfs within a week or two. They've "flattened" pve to what it is now very intentionally over several years. It's probably never going to go back in the other direction. It's also why utility things are the first to disappear in pruning sweeps. The average player doesn't use most of them.

I don't like that every expansion I feel less druidy and more roguey, but the emphasis on that hybrid gameplay just isn't there now. When they redesigned talents in MoP they designed a whole tier around that concept. HotW used to be my favorite talent just because it let me have some of that gameplay back. I help save our first heroic Shek'zeer kill with HotW. They are doing it again in Legion with the level 45 row. That's probably about as close to it as we're going to get.

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by teddabear » Tue Dec 15, 2015 2:29 am

Cantor (Shredable) wrote: I've lived through this and it's not pretty - you end up on a rollercoaster, and the nerfs tend to send you very low, which feels crap. The Feral (bear) nerfs at the start of TBC were one such set, and there have been a few others - I seem to remember Cata having a pretty brutal Feral patch. I'd rather be tuned low and buffed than tuned high and over-nerfed.
I would have agreed with this in the past but I don't think it's the case anymore.

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by teddabear » Tue Dec 15, 2015 2:42 am

Whitepaw wrote:I think it's interesting that most of this discussion still resolves around the problems apparent in WoD. I would like our discussion to be more far-reaching than just "We want competitive AoE" and for or against Savage Roar.

At this point of the development cycle, we should discuss the meta-game, i.e. how are the engagements designed. Should we proceed with having a lot of adds? Should we proceed with not having to use CC in PvE fights? How about off-healing, should that be competitive? How about off-tanking, how necessary should that be?

Right now, the worst part of WoW PvE gameplay is that it's so one-dimensional. As a dps, you fill a dps-slot - and you basically do damage. That's it. So when we give feedback to gameplay and the Feral spec, we focus on that one aspect, doing damage. We also only measure by that one metric: How much dps we do.

This is against the whole design idea behind the Druid class. We have the tools to do so much more, and so do the other classes. Every class can do some CC, off-healing or off-tanking - Druids are in the unique position of being able to (potentially) do them all. We are not in TBC, where only a few classes could bring the needed CC abilities. Now, all classes bring these, but the PvE gameplay has been flattened (some would say "dumbed down") so it's not needed anymore to succeed!

I would like our Druid community to focus our feedback to the devs on this aspect: How to make the PvE gameplay more interesting and avoid this dps comparison race to the bottom. After that's done, we can have our AoE discussions and try to decide if Savage Roar should be changed :lol:
In my opinion the things that have been in high demand from a DPS in no particular order are Raid CDs, Tank CD's and burst (both AoE and single target).

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Polihayse » Tue Dec 15, 2015 5:28 am

I've been losing interest in feral throughout this expansion, and I am thinking about playing a different class in legion. However, they are making stampeding roar a guardian/feral only utility ability that I assume will actually be pretty useful. Being the the most experienced feral player in my guild probably means I'll be forced to play this spec whether I want to or not.

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Zokis » Mon Feb 01, 2016 9:51 pm

I've just been hearing that melee hits isn't affected by the boomkin affinity. Can somebody please tell me if it's intended? The wording is that it's only abilities, but i always assumed it would include white hits.
If it's not the case, all it does is to make it a tad harder to see if you're within range to hit with the white hits.
Personally i see it as pretty useless. It's not like you're going to be happy with having ferals at a bit of range if they suddenly lose the damage from that in exchange. Fuck the rest of the melee that can't find out to spread out properly then. I stay in range and do full dps :P
Am i being too negative about it or is it useless?

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by deemer » Tue Feb 02, 2016 12:51 pm

You've been hearing correctly. This affinity is only about yellow attacks atm. It may still have some uses, but not so many as being expected.

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Yriss » Tue Feb 02, 2016 1:47 pm

Polihayse wrote:I've been losing interest in feral throughout this expansion, and I am thinking about playing a different class in legion. However, they are making stampeding roar a guardian/feral only utility ability that I assume will actually be pretty useful. Being the the most experienced feral player in my guild probably means I'll be forced to play this spec whether I want to or not.
Or not ... Shamans got something way better than our stampeding roar ... A totem (talent every shams will have), 1min cd, last 15sec, which give you the same buff than a stampeding roar (and this buff refresh all the time if you stay near the totem, basically 60% move speed for 20+sec). So you can pre cast your totem, if someone wasn't in range, nvm, he just need to walk near the totem and he has the buff as well ... And you can cast this totem where you want
Feral (ok, cats aren't up @alpha yet, perhaps it'll change) keep only a 2min cd stampeding roar with 10 yards range, and only gardian can have a buffed stampeding roar (40y/1min cd). Once again, why take a cat if another class can do better and/or give an utility to a raid ? Even for our stampeding roar :'( I really hope they'll give us a real utility, now we "lost" our unique ability

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by AsgardFM » Tue Feb 02, 2016 6:50 pm

Yriss wrote:
Polihayse wrote:I've been losing interest in feral throughout this expansion, and I am thinking about playing a different class in legion. However, they are making stampeding roar a guardian/feral only utility ability that I assume will actually be pretty useful. Being the the most experienced feral player in my guild probably means I'll be forced to play this spec whether I want to or not.
Or not ... Shamans got something way better than our stampeding roar ... A totem (talent every shams will have), 1min cd, last 15sec, which give you the same buff than a stampeding roar (and this buff refresh all the time if you stay near the totem, basically 60% move speed for 20+sec). So you can pre cast your totem, if someone wasn't in range, nvm, he just need to walk near the totem and he has the buff as well ... And you can cast this totem where you want
Feral (ok, cats aren't up @alpha yet, perhaps it'll change) keep only a 2min cd stampeding roar with 10 yards range, and only gardian can have a buffed stampeding roar (40y/1min cd). Once again, why take a cat if another class can do better and/or give an utility to a raid ? Even for our stampeding roar :'( I really hope they'll give us a real utility, now we "lost" our unique ability
The two abilities are similar but have different uses. Wind Rush totem lasts 15 seconds but the movement speed buff only lasts 5 seconds IF a player enters the totem 6 yard radius. This will be useful if you need to move rapidly in a small area (dodging left to right or avoiding frequent ground AoE zones). Stampeding Roar will be used as before. Slightly disappointing we lose the radius increase from glyphs but Balance Affinity range bonus should affect it for a 15 yard radius.

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Yriss » Wed Feb 03, 2016 6:57 am

10yard for the totem, and you can put it on the ground where you want
Image
ok it's 5 sec but you have to leave the area to have this 5 sec countdown not refreshing, + delay from server we all the time have with these buffs so it's basically the same. (btw, it's long enough to move where we want)
On nythendra, we found this totem way more usefull than our gardian stampeding roar (talented) ... Perhaps the lag didn't help too (EU players on US servers) because totem was up before she casted her breath, but it's really nice to have this speed buff immediatly "put down your totem and forget it" and not reactively (for that, perhaps once we'll have exact timers, if she never delay her breath, it'll be ok). In addition, all shaman specs can have it, and with the buff they give, there will have a resto sham on a progress raid (and 1 to 2 warriors -_-).

Don't forget i talk about progress raid where we have to optimize everything, where you don't take the player but the class (there are some exceptions depending of guilds) because all players are nearly equal ... So if a class is useless in a progress raid (no raid utility, and not a dps way better than others, especially in a game where ranged are always prefered), or you take an alt (if you had enough luck on the first week heroic raid, these guilds do at least 4/5 30man heroic+nm runs the first week), or you bench xD

So ... i still hope we'll have an unique utility in the raid, outside only our dps .... Stampeding roar isn't ours anymore :(

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by teddabear » Thu Feb 04, 2016 8:39 am

AsgardFM wrote:
Yriss wrote:
Polihayse wrote:I've been losing interest in feral throughout this expansion, and I am thinking about playing a different class in legion. However, they are making stampeding roar a guardian/feral only utility ability that I assume will actually be pretty useful. Being the the most experienced feral player in my guild probably means I'll be forced to play this spec whether I want to or not.
Or not ... Shamans got something way better than our stampeding roar ... A totem (talent every shams will have), 1min cd, last 15sec, which give you the same buff than a stampeding roar (and this buff refresh all the time if you stay near the totem, basically 60% move speed for 20+sec). So you can pre cast your totem, if someone wasn't in range, nvm, he just need to walk near the totem and he has the buff as well ... And you can cast this totem where you want
Feral (ok, cats aren't up @alpha yet, perhaps it'll change) keep only a 2min cd stampeding roar with 10 yards range, and only gardian can have a buffed stampeding roar (40y/1min cd). Once again, why take a cat if another class can do better and/or give an utility to a raid ? Even for our stampeding roar :'( I really hope they'll give us a real utility, now we "lost" our unique ability
Slightly disappointing we lose the radius increase from glyphs but Balance Affinity range bonus should affect it for a 15 yard radius.
It will be pretty craptastic without the Glyph, I imagine they will make it around 30 yards baseline.

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Dysheki » Mon Feb 08, 2016 6:28 pm

What's feral?

:-/

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