Feral Druid Blog post discussion

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Tinderhoof
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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Tinderhoof » Sun Nov 15, 2015 1:01 am

teddabear wrote:ShredDamage increased by 20% against bleeding targets.Ramp up. Ugh.
That's exactly how it is on live. In fact it's been that way since BC.
teddabear wrote:ShredWhile stealthed, Shred deals 20% increased damage, and has double the chance to critically strike.Incarnation only viable talent choice again???
Also exactly the same as it is on live. The Rake perc is what made Incarnation so over powered not the Shred bonus. With that gone Incarnation will be closer to earth. It will also be super boring.

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by teddabear » Sun Nov 15, 2015 4:23 am

Tinderhoof wrote:
teddabear wrote:ShredDamage increased by 20% against bleeding targets.Ramp up. Ugh.
That's exactly how it is on live. In fact it's been that way since BC.
teddabear wrote:ShredWhile stealthed, Shred deals 20% increased damage, and has double the chance to critically strike.Incarnation only viable talent choice again???
Also exactly the same as it is on live. The Rake perc is what made Incarnation so over powered not the Shred bonus. With that gone Incarnation will be closer to earth. It will also be super boring.

Ferals have had the bleedting target pre-condition long enough. It's not like you are really doing extra a damage, it's just a requirement to do full damage. The more accurate way to think about it is you only do about 80% damage if the target isn't bleeding.

Hopefully there will something exciting about Feral other than Incarnation. I will say it was nice to have good burst though, that was almost the only compelling reason left for bringing a Feral.

So far it sounds like Blizzard doesn't understand Feral was in bad shape in WoD.

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Treeba » Sun Nov 15, 2015 6:13 am

Satrion wrote:Here is why I am nervous about Blizz thinking of us as single target specialists again. The fact is we are not single target specialists the the way an arcane mage is, we are SUSTAINED single target specialists. Our single target burst is among the worst in the game outside of 3 minute CDs. It's true that sustained single target is the one role that is in (nearly) every fight, but it is also the one role that you're never going to have THAT big an advantage in.

Patchwerk damage will always be the most closely balanced aspect of DPS. These days it is rare to see any class have more than a 5% or so advantage over anyone else. Meanwhile it is the norm for some specs to be 30-40% better at say burst AoE or sustained cleave than others. I don't really want another expansion of doing 2% better boss damage and 75% worse damage to everything else.
I definitely agree with this. I also don't like where this leaves us outside of raids either. I know the primary focus here is raiding, but our niche leaves us very undesirable for things like CMs. We'll see how things turn out with the new style of CMs.

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Nich » Sun Nov 15, 2015 6:22 am

I'd be happy if they made swipe give 1CP per target hit and didn't buff the damage. Current subtlety style fok, where it's basically a quick way to generate finisher burst on a target.

But it sounds like that aint happening, either.

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by teddabear » Sun Nov 15, 2015 10:00 am

Nich wrote:I'd be happy if they made swipe give 1CP per target hit and didn't buff the damage. Current subtlety style fok, where it's basically a quick way to generate finisher burst on a target.

But it sounds like that aint happening, either.
Swipe could do 0 combo points, it just needs to do a LOT more damage.

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by ShmooDude » Sun Nov 15, 2015 1:13 pm

Interesting Tweet on MMO-C news:

Will the mage specs be more balanced in Legion? In WoD Fire was basically AoE only & bad for single target (e.g. most of HFC)
Previously, we favored some AoE niches between specs. We'll be toning that down for Legion. (WarcraftDevs)

While doesn't completely alleviate my concerns about our ST niche, does imply that they're going to try to not have ridiculously OP aoe classes this time around. Hopefully that means the other way too (we won't be ridiculously UP).

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Zstriker » Sun Nov 15, 2015 8:41 pm

I want something like overpowered warrior's bladestorm , takeable in talents
their old WoD bet concept of `Bloody Thrash` - Thrash now also applies the Rake bleed effect to all damaged enemies and awards 1 combo point if it strikes your current combo target.` with a 1 min cd

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by teddabear » Mon Nov 16, 2015 12:19 am

Satrion wrote:Here is why I am nervous about Blizz thinking of us as single target specialists again. The fact is we are not single target specialists the the way an arcane mage is, we are SUSTAINED single target specialists. Our single target burst is among the worst in the game outside of 3 minute CDs. It's true that sustained single target is the one role that is in (nearly) every fight, but it is also the one role that you're never going to have THAT big an advantage in.

Patchwerk damage will always be the most closely balanced aspect of DPS. These days it is rare to see any class have more than a 5% or so advantage over anyone else. Meanwhile it is the norm for some specs to be 30-40% better at say burst AoE or sustained cleave than others. I don't really want another expansion of doing 2% better boss damage and 75% worse damage to everything else.
Well put. Need to bombard their twitter with that 24/7 if you want to make it so.

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Zstriker » Tue Nov 17, 2015 7:14 pm

https://twitter.com/WarcraftDevs/status ... 1947813888

we are gonna lose saberform ; / really sad day
yet seems talent will be rework also

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Tinderhoof » Tue Nov 17, 2015 7:25 pm

Really? You are sad to see that form gone? You would be the first druid ever I have met that thought that form wasn't just ugly and lazy.

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Whitepaw » Tue Nov 17, 2015 7:42 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:Really? You are sad to see that form gone? You would be the first druid ever I have met that thought that form wasn't just ugly and lazy.
What I liked about that form was the ability to cast spells without leaving form (= without having a GCD between using abilities). Seems to me that paladin, shaman and now also monk have more fluidity between using different abilities than the arch-hybrid in WoW!

It's also the reason why Guardian feels a bit gimped, when you look at it from a gameplay point of view - most of the toolbox is simply not available while tanking, unless you want to say "Hai!" to the boss while in caster form. Over the years, Blizzard has tried to lessen this disadvantage, but we're not there yet. My hope is that we will be able to cast all the abilities we retain, while staying in bear/cat forms.

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Tinderhoof » Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:11 pm

Those abilities are from the talent not the form. I'm positive those abilities will live on in the PVP talent trees. The form itself is dead, and praise the earth mother for it.

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by teddabear » Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:47 pm

Zstriker wrote:
we are gonna lose saberform ; / really sad day
The graphics were embarrassingly bad. I was sure it had to be a placeholder when I first saw it.

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Rayen » Tue Nov 17, 2015 11:09 pm

john [email protected]
@WarcraftDevs is anything being done to address affliction warlocks aoe dps issues?
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@unicyclenut Yes. Multidotting will be strong again, and Seed will be strong, especially with a talent that allows AoE application of Seed.

This was directed at warlocks but does have some insite to how blizz is thinking. Since we are technically a "dot" class makes a more concerned for our tab rake-aoe.
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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Zstriker » Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:00 am

Tinderhoof wrote:Really? You are sad to see that form gone? You would be the first druid ever I have met that thought that form wasn't just ugly and lazy.
Ye I like visual,
also I'm not only PvE player but PvP too, plus for early soloing on it was nice

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Polihayse » Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:24 am

Wait why are they refering to CoS as saberon form? Even though it uses the same model, it isn't technically a saberon. The connection to the saberon only comes from the fact that they recycled a model and I find it kind of strange that they would identify the form in this way.

Also, I get the feeling that the people who liked CoS's appearance somewhat willed themselves to see past all of the clunkiness in its look and the implications of CoS form. They liked the idea of it as an aspect of role playing and this causes them to stand behind this talent despite all of the problems that other people see. The talent even had a quote in it to appeal to RPers.

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Cantor (Shredable) » Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:18 am

Easy way to buff up Swipe and not have it compete with Shred would be to increase it's damage only if it hits more than 2 targets (2 is a low-enough number that you could easily roll dots on both even early in the expansion). Our large weaknesses – single-target burst and AoE – have been acknowledged by Blizzard, so we just need to hope that something is done about them. We're never going to be good at sustained AoE as an energy class with an expensive AoE tool and no reliable passive energy return (see: Assassination Rogues), but bursty AE damage would be a fine area to buff us in. I'm hoping that Jagged Wounds isn't the only 'burst' tool that we're given to swap to low-health adds – we'd really need direct damage buffs for this to work, but I've no idea how that would work – our DD tools (Shred and Bite) have the bleed prerequisite, which is one of the things that hurts us in the target-swapping game.

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Tinderhoof » Wed Nov 18, 2015 2:45 pm

Rayen wrote:This was directed at warlocks but does have some insite to how blizz is thinking. Since we are technically a "dot" class makes a more concerned for our tab rake-aoe.
Sorry to burst your bubble but we aren't a DoT class. We have some DoTs in our game play, but Blizzard only considers Casters to be DoT classes (IE the ones where haste actually does stuff to dots). We are a special snowflake... :^ (

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Istaro » Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:50 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:Sorry to burst your bubble but we aren't a DoT class. We have some DoTs in our game play, but Blizzard only considers Casters to be DoT classes (IE the ones where haste actually does stuff to dots). We are a special snowflake... :^ (
Huh. They may use different terminology, but our mastery seems to suggest that bleeds are supposed to be central to our damage (although I guess the same could be said about assassination rogues).

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Tinderhoof » Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:02 pm

And there in lies the "rub" as it were. They are Bleeds, not DoT and thus act differently, and are treated differently. They are physical damage instead of magic damage, but they avoid armor like magic damage. They don't get modified by haste. We aren't considered a DoT class by the makers of our class. We can argue semantics with them but really it's up to them.

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by teddabear » Thu Nov 19, 2015 8:26 am

Blizzard can keep going like they been going and watch their subscription numbers continue in the same direction or they can start fixing some of their more stupid mantras. The have used up all of their good will get out of jail free cards. Even he most ardent supporters are fed up after WoD. It would be wise for Blizzard to at least listen to their players.

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Kojiyama » Thu Nov 19, 2015 12:31 pm

Not sure totally agree with you there, Tinderhoof. I think most MMO devs would very much classify Ferals as a 'DoT class' given that the majority of our damage is periodic. Our percentage of periodic damage is notably higher than Shadow Priests right now, for example. (In fact, it's probably even higher than Affliction Warlocks if you don't view Drain Soul's mechanic as DoT damage.)

Bleeds are really only a semantic difference in terms of game mechanics that have little implication other than us getting boned on Haste scaling for "reasons."

(It's not as if magical DoTs always scaled based on Haste either, but apparently Warlocks are better at advocating for changes than Ferals! I seem to distinctly remember them having exactly the same back-and-forth arguments about it with the devs at the time that Ferals have had with their bleeds recently... Haste has always been a wonky stat with new things cobbled on to it almost every xpac--probably as they have time to implement and test hooks in the various code paths required to support it.)
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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Dysheki » Thu Nov 19, 2015 12:38 pm

I don't care about semantics. I just want to make sure tab-rake aoe isn't a thing. It's awful as a melee and just the worst idea.

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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Kojiyama » Thu Nov 19, 2015 1:18 pm

Fully agree there... although, honestly, it's crappy for casters too. (That is why Seed of Corruption was a thing, anyway...) Tab-DoT as a mechanic requires too much fiddling with a targeting system that doesn't actually work very well and too much reliance on mods/DoT trackers.
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Re: Feral Druid Blog post discussion

Post by Dysheki » Thu Nov 19, 2015 2:09 pm

As a caster is was annoying but doable. The tough part about melee is when you select your next target is it going to be in range? Multiple mobs usually spread out and it's frankly difficult to deal with. Not saying it's not a problem for ranged as they could still end up moving out of range, but less annoying as the margin of space they have to deal with to attack the target is greater. Once you go past 4 mobs I don't consider tab-raking to be a feasible mechanic with the default UI. I would prefer it to be at 2-4 and anything above that would fall under thrash/swipe playstyle.

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