6.2.3 item upgrades and our bad scaling

Face-rippin fun.

Moderator: Forum Administrators

Zstriker
Honored
Posts: 189
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 12:55 pm

6.2.3 item upgrades and our bad scaling

Post by Zstriker » Thu Nov 12, 2015 8:01 am

There were blog post about current pvp season end , it means as those 2 week will pass there gonna be patch, as always be, at 17-18 November.
6.2.3 will bringing back items upgrade, so we goona get +10 itemlevels like everyone.
On the other side knowing that our stats weight are scalling lower then other, will result us going being down on DPS charts.
Anyone curious to simming that? Do we need some abilities buffs again to compensate like we always get in every patch?

User avatar
Amitty
Honored
Posts: 151
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2014 4:28 am

Re: 6.2.3 item upgrades and our bad scaling

Post by Amitty » Thu Nov 12, 2015 8:05 am

We're not getting anything even if we need it. With the increased item levels the kill times are going to become a lot shorter. Even shorter if your raid team drops a healer. The only thing we can do is drop the Seed for Censer and pray for overlapping Capacitor/Censer procs.

Zstriker
Honored
Posts: 189
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 12:55 pm

Re: 6.2.3 item upgrades and our bad scaling

Post by Zstriker » Thu Nov 12, 2015 8:55 am

ofc you won't get if you not point devs to do it
even you and me done progressing, way bigger part of all raiding base are still trying hc/mythic where their time kills won't be dramaticaly faster

User avatar
Amitty
Honored
Posts: 151
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2014 4:28 am

Re: 6.2.3 item upgrades and our bad scaling

Post by Amitty » Thu Nov 12, 2015 9:43 am

Feral Druid discussion at Blizzard's devs office. :P

Image

PS : Joke shamelessly stolen from Reddit. It was originally about Ele Shamans, but I think it fits our case quite well.

Kojiyama
Revered
Posts: 478
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2015 1:47 pm

Re: 6.2.3 item upgrades and our bad scaling

Post by Kojiyama » Thu Nov 12, 2015 10:33 am

Will definitely hurt us at the higher ilevel ranges (say 740+) but, frankly, it's unlikely to matter once your raid has that gear level anyway.

There is already a big difference in kill times between progression ilevels (~725-728) and farm ilevels (~733) and the ~13% damage increase across most classes from 730 to 740 is going to be a pretty dramatic reduction in difficulty.

For people working their way up through Heroic/early Mythic it shouldn't be too much of a negative to jump from 720 to 730 or whatever because that is still in the band where Feral scaling is tuned for right now. Blizzard will probably keep the current tuning so that things remain balanced for casual/semi-casual progression between Christmas and Legion launch.
Image

Ehrenfailed
Honored
Posts: 51
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:42 pm

Re: 6.2.3 item upgrades and our bad scaling

Post by Ehrenfailed » Sun Nov 15, 2015 1:42 pm

has anyone theorycrafted a bit regarding trinkets or what items to upgrade first? I see myself swapping seed for censer I guess, especially because killtimes will be shorter...so I guess first things to upgrade would be weapon > soulcap > censer in case one had bad luck and has no bis warforged item like me?

Batlecruiser
Honored
Posts: 58
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:04 pm

Re: 6.2.3 item upgrades and our bad scaling

Post by Batlecruiser » Sun Nov 15, 2015 2:42 pm

Ehrenfailed wrote:has anyone theorycrafted a bit regarding trinkets or what items to upgrade first? I see myself swapping seed for censer I guess, especially because killtimes will be shorter...so I guess first things to upgrade would be weapon > soulcap > censer in case one had bad luck and has no bis warforged item like me?
For me (current GS 733, 13/13 M) it looks the following:
Slot....................DPS..........Diff
Weapon............103098........1904
Capa................102597........1403
Seed................102354........1160
Chest (rand)......102198........1004
Head (T)...........102092.........898
Legs (T)...........102084..........890
Waist...............101936.........742
Feet.................101925.........731
Shoulder (T)......101914.........720
Hands (T)..........101867.........673
Wrist................101818.........624
Neck.................101779........585
Ring..................101731........537
Back.................101671.........477

I didnt sim Censer, because I never got it. :(

Nevertheless I did a little Trinket Comparison by fight duration: http://i.imgur.com/dPdGsah.png
(Settings: Capacitor is always used. Simmed for single target fights. All trinkets are mythic without upgrades.)
Result: Censer/Capa is best for fights under 230 seconds (3m50s). Or Seed is only worth it, if Inkar and Berserk are used at least twice with full duration.

Ehrenfailed
Honored
Posts: 51
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:42 pm

Re: 6.2.3 item upgrades and our bad scaling

Post by Ehrenfailed » Sun Nov 15, 2015 6:22 pm

thanks, that's pretty much what I was guessing :D

Cere
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Nov 03, 2014 10:58 am

Re: 6.2.3 item upgrades and our bad scaling

Post by Cere » Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:51 am

How much is the 6% buff to Moonfire going to help LI?
I'm especially interested in heroic gear levels, as there's no way we'll be able to find 8 other persons for mythic :(
I really hate the preparation phase of Bloodtalons and have been using LI, but got enough gear with the right stats that it's a 3k dps downgrade right now.

Dysheki
Revered
Posts: 410
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:41 am

Re: 6.2.3 item upgrades and our bad scaling

Post by Dysheki » Mon Nov 16, 2015 11:58 am

From what I've seen moonfire is only buffed for boomkin and not feral. So contjnue not using LI.

Zarzul
Honored
Posts: 109
Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:11 am

Re: 6.2.3 item upgrades and our bad scaling

Post by Zarzul » Tue Nov 17, 2015 5:42 am

how about Mirror of the Blademaster now summon magical blades as guardians, instead of mirror images of the caster.
and +10 itemlevels

does it change to BiS ?

User avatar
Polihayse
Revered
Posts: 459
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:46 am

Re: 6.2.3 item upgrades and our bad scaling

Post by Polihayse » Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:40 am

How are feral druids going to compare to sub rogues and arcane mages with the new upgrades? My guild is starting to do Mythic sales and I was given the option to main swap to rogue. We are going to be carrying 2-3 people at a time. How much more useful would I be as a rogue assuming that I could play it optimally?

Zarzul
Honored
Posts: 109
Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:11 am

Re: 6.2.3 item upgrades and our bad scaling

Post by Zarzul » Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:11 am

sadly a lot poli

not only do they out brust and dps us, if u can handle all specs , allso there soaking and survival is insane... we have roar.

this tier 18 bring 14 dps


5 mage
5 rogues
4 hunters


then u have best setup... dps and soaking wise...

Kojiyama
Revered
Posts: 478
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2015 1:47 pm

Re: 6.2.3 item upgrades and our bad scaling

Post by Kojiyama » Tue Nov 17, 2015 11:41 am

Polihayse wrote:How are feral druids going to compare to sub rogues and arcane mages with the new upgrades? My guild is starting to do Mythic sales and I was given the option to main swap to rogue. We are going to be carrying 2-3 people at a time. How much more useful would I be as a rogue assuming that I could play it optimally?
Arguable really. What's the ilevel on your Rogue? Ramp-up time is going to be a factor comparing to your Feral gear. (Also, the upgrade level of your legendary ring?)

Honestly, while Sub is clearly better all-around than Feral, I wouldn't say the margin is great enough to be worth swapping for just for efficiency at this point in tuning unless you want to use it as an opportunity to play your Rogue personally. With the increased item level, even carrying 2-3 people should be pretty trivial across the majority of fights in the dungeon.

On the later fights, Feral is pretty strong on Velhari (roughly the same max as Sub,) decent on Xhul (unless you need an extra Rogue to soak/blow up fire, Feral and Sub are pretty close, Combat is a lot better if you are lacking Imp DPS,) and pretty decent on Mannoroth because of the final phase burn (comparing your highest rank parse P4 to the same rank Sub Rogue is pretty close to the same DPS.)

The question really is if your raid group needs the Rogue utility to handle mechanics with the slimmed-down raid group.
Image

User avatar
Polihayse
Revered
Posts: 459
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:46 am

Re: 6.2.3 item upgrades and our bad scaling

Post by Polihayse » Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:51 pm

My rogue is 700 ilvl with no set bonuses and heroic class trinket. They are willing to carry it and funnel a bunch of mythic gear to it. It would work well for this week because we have no leather buyers. I have also been getting the ring upgrade every week on it.

Xanzara
Posts: 25
Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2014 8:09 am

Re: 6.2.3 item upgrades and our bad scaling

Post by Xanzara » Tue Nov 17, 2015 1:14 pm

Sub's dps is to a much larger extent than our dps bound to the level of the legendary ring, so that could take quite a while to farm up as well (unless you have already kept it upgraded of course).

Kojiyama
Revered
Posts: 478
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2015 1:47 pm

Re: 6.2.3 item upgrades and our bad scaling

Post by Kojiyama » Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:08 pm

I mean, if you don't need gear on your Feral and like playing your Rogue... I guess use it as an opportunity to gear up and practice. Honestly, I don't think it will make a huge difference at this stage unless your proposed comp is low on mechanic soakers though.

Frankly, as much as Sub is better than Feral right now it seems like very limited ROI given the Feral parses you put up. You're realistically not going to see any increases until you are parsing 90%+ as Sub, which is probably not going to happen for a while starting at 700 ilevel even if you are getting funneled.

That said, I might take up the opportunity personally because playing another class during the upcoming pointless 6 month farm/parse-a-thon would probably be fun. :P
Image

Ehrenfailed
Honored
Posts: 51
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:42 pm

Re: 6.2.3 item upgrades and our bad scaling

Post by Ehrenfailed » Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:02 am

Still wondering if switching to the new heirloom trinket is any good on mannoroth mythic...did anyone test it yet?

Zstriker
Honored
Posts: 189
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 12:55 pm

Re: 6.2.3 item upgrades and our bad scaling

Post by Zstriker » Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:59 pm

with double upgrade on hfc trinkets it not really worth

Kojiyama
Revered
Posts: 478
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2015 1:47 pm

Re: 6.2.3 item upgrades and our bad scaling

Post by Kojiyama » Wed Nov 18, 2015 1:43 pm

The proc on the Agility trinket is so terrible that it's not really worth using unless you are at lower gear levels.

Aggixx brought this up yesterday and I looked into it some more, but the Strength one is probably quite a bit better than the Agility one because the uptime on the proc is so much higher. The loss of Agility is mostly offset by the other stats (not quite, but only a couple hundred DPS lower) and the proc uptime is nearly double.

Still not better than a 2/2 Upgraded Seed of Creation by the looks of it, but it would probably be close or better than non-upgraded Heroic trinkets and maybe some of the low-end Mythic trinkets. Need to run some more specific numbers.

Really baffled by how much worse the Agility one is than the Strength and Int ones. It's a massive difference.
Image

User avatar
Kraineth
Revered
Posts: 331
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:26 am
Contact:

Re: 6.2.3 item upgrades and our bad scaling

Post by Kraineth » Wed Nov 18, 2015 2:04 pm

Zarzul wrote:how about Mirror of the Blademaster now summon magical blades as guardians, instead of mirror images of the caster.
and +10 itemlevels

does it change to BiS ?
Unless it was changed in the patch, the trinket usage is based off of weapon damage, not its item level. So the only thing the upgrades give it is more base agility. So I doubt it would be BiS, but I've been too lazy to sim everything so yea

Also held off on going 2/2 on my Mythic WF Seed of Creation since 1/2 gives you 29.44 seconds on TF.

The post-patch farm clear has gone pretty well to be honest, the itemlevel increases allowed us to stop doing silly DPS stops on Manno/Archimonde, and made the Zakuun fight 2:22 for us instead of just over 3minutes, which is much better for feral.

Zarzul
Honored
Posts: 109
Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:11 am

Re: 6.2.3 item upgrades and our bad scaling

Post by Zarzul » Thu Nov 19, 2015 8:06 am

forget my post about Mirror of the Blademaster, i was told blads would follow ure char , with blads coming out of ure body :)

so wrong

Dysheki
Revered
Posts: 410
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:41 am

Re: 6.2.3 item upgrades and our bad scaling

Post by Dysheki » Thu Nov 19, 2015 12:34 pm

I wish we didn't need to worry about dps stops, but we sell arch now and just have them kill themselves so it's still in effect :(

Niff
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:27 am

Re: 6.2.3 item upgrades and our bad scaling

Post by Niff » Fri Nov 20, 2015 5:14 am

I tested the heirloom trinket yesterday on manno mythic, it felt strange for a few pulls to play without seed but i think the heirloom trinket is not that bad after the hotfix. The uptime is crazy sometimes espacially if it happens during a soul capa procc i think its pretty good. I had an average uptime around 30%. Did someone else did some testing with it?

bacevicius
Honored
Posts: 175
Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:58 pm

Re: 6.2.3 item upgrades and our bad scaling

Post by bacevicius » Mon Nov 23, 2015 2:14 pm

I see someone did an upgrade on seed heroic and it puts TF at 29.44secs. So 2/2 would be over the thirty sec cooldown if thats so , then it seems kind of dumb to even give us the option to upgrade that trinket. Our fights are shorter that 3 mins at least 75^% of them so being lucky enough to have gotten a 721 censer to up to 731 and combo with the 720 2/2 soul cap is simming higher for me unless its on arch or mann where you actually get 2 zerks in .

edit he had a MWF seed but still the under 6 min fights make the censer work better if your lucky to have gotten a HWF or higher ...

Post Reply