Datamined Legion Talents

Face-rippin fun.

Moderator: Forum Administrators

User avatar
Firnafth
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 1:03 pm

Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Firnafth » Sun Nov 29, 2015 1:43 pm

I am irritated to see SR and BT on the same tier and I hope it changes. I enjoy handling them together. Grumble grumble simplifying rotation grumble.

Incidentally, I'm also curious about the relative scaling of the talents on that tier as is. All other things being equal, wouldn't BT scale better than SR because it affects a greater proportion of our abilities as crit increases, vs. the flat damage increase of SR?

teddabear
Revered
Posts: 346
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2012 6:56 am

Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by teddabear » Sun Nov 29, 2015 2:04 pm

I think it may be the other way around, SR will effect a greater number of abilities.

User avatar
aggixx
Exalted
Posts: 2292
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:49 pm
Contact:

Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by aggixx » Sun Nov 29, 2015 7:43 pm

Sibylle wrote:Hmhm, I don't agree at all that SR is just another button to press. SR requiring Combo Points makes it part of the planning and thinking 30 seconds ahead which make up much of the complexity of the spec. Whether or not it's a particularly compelling ability in itself is a different question, but putting it on the same Tier as Bloodtalons without introducing a new rotational ability to compensate, will further simplify our gameplay. From what I see, at 5 Combo Points we'll either Rip or bite, full stop.
Its not just another button to press, not sure if anyone was trying to push that argument. Maybe Kojiyama was.

The skill itself is not interesting, its what it does to how you think about and use combo points that is interesting. When you take away SR maintaining Rip on a single target becomes totally brainless because it is literally impossible to not reach 5 combo points in 24 seconds.
Firnafth wrote:Incidentally, I'm also curious about the relative scaling of the talents on that tier as is. All other things being equal, wouldn't BT scale better than SR because it affects a greater proportion of our abilities as crit increases, vs. the flat damage increase of SR?
There's a handful of things going on with scaling. Bloodtalons predominantly affects bleeds, which means its scaling the only part of our damage breakdown that scales with all 4 secondary stats (thanks to Mastery); those skills would generally scale faster. You also have Bite and Shred during Incarnation (which is much less relevant if Incarnation is no longer a total lock) scaling at double the rate with crit, but Bloodtalons affects Bite very often, and the extra crit scaling is less significant than scaling from a whole other stat. Then you have your opportunity costs: Bloodtalons essentially effects a fixed ratio of abilities (just faster and faster with more gear) since you get 2 procs every 5 combo points, whereas Savage Roar's cost is fixed despite your combo point income increasing with gear. That means, even though the strength of those 5 combo points is increasing, its not increasing as fast as the increase in combo point generation so the opportunity cost of Savage Roar actually goes down slightly with gear.

Honestly, it probably depends on how potent mastery is / how much we like to stack it more than anything, but both talents have stuff going for them. It doesn't seem like there's anything that would cause the talents to scale exceptionally differently. Changes in set bonuses, strange trinket effects, boss encounters, and gaining new artifact perks will probably have vastly more effect in which talent is superior in practice than scaling does.
ImageImage

Istaro
Honored
Posts: 164
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2014 11:33 pm
Location: Japan

Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Istaro » Sun Nov 29, 2015 9:18 pm

aggixx wrote:Bloodtalons essentially effects a fixed ratio of abilities (just faster and faster with more gear)
As an aside, I think this is not quite the case and that's what Firnafth was saying at the top of this page. For the sake of illustration, consider the case of 0% crit and 100% crit; with 0% crit, BT would affect 1/3 of our abilities (2 out of the 6 constituting each cycle, i.e. builder builder builder builder builder finisher), whereas with 100% crit, it would affect 1/2 of our abilities (2 out of the 4 constituting each cycle, i.e. builder builder builder finisher).

Kojiyama
Revered
Posts: 478
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2015 1:47 pm

Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Kojiyama » Sun Nov 29, 2015 10:24 pm

aggixx wrote:
Sibylle wrote:Hmhm, I don't agree at all that SR is just another button to press. SR requiring Combo Points makes it part of the planning and thinking 30 seconds ahead which make up much of the complexity of the spec. Whether or not it's a particularly compelling ability in itself is a different question, but putting it on the same Tier as Bloodtalons without introducing a new rotational ability to compensate, will further simplify our gameplay. From what I see, at 5 Combo Points we'll either Rip or bite, full stop.
Its not just another button to press, not sure if anyone was trying to push that argument. Maybe Kojiyama was.

The skill itself is not interesting, its what it does to how you think about and use combo points that is interesting. When you take away SR maintaining Rip on a single target becomes totally brainless because it is literally impossible to not reach 5 combo points in 24 seconds.
My argument for SR has always been that is essentially ties up an action bar slot for something that could be more interesting.

It is certainly true that once you start juggling three CP spenders, the complexity level goes up quite a bit--but I would argue that the infrequency of SR being applied is relaxed enough that it still doesn't really cause any major issues. It just eats into FB usage realistically. There are a couple timing-sensitive overlaps with Rip, but these are still pretty rare. (I'd also mention that both Elune's Guidance and Sabertooth both theoretically remove a large part of this.)

Jagged Wounds will probably make our rotation a lot more interesting even without an extra button. I'd rather focus on that personally.
Image

Zstriker
Honored
Posts: 189
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 12:55 pm

Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Zstriker » Mon Nov 30, 2015 2:24 am

Kojiyama wrote: The skill itself is not interesting,
...
My argument for SR has always been that is essentially ties up an action bar slot for something that could be more interesting.
..
I
can I go further
[sarcasm=on]
rip is not interesting - it's just a dot
rake is not interesting it's another blant dot doing damage over time
shred - pff dull cp generator, just press it = win
bloodtalons - seriously it's so complex for me to use that is not appealing to my tase - uninteresting spell PLZZ BLIZZ REMOVE IT
[sarcasm=off]
you trying to put class design phylosophy under you personal taste, thinking for some ability from your view point, yet there millions playing this game and this spec. Some love it as it is, some don't - reroll other class/specialization. Developers have a huge problems before them of how to appeal to everyone: from brainded LFR raider or analysing mythic one in PvE and also on peoples on PvP battles.
SR is spell and button in our rotation, you not use - you are bad, thats how it always was
point is together in rotation with other spell it create uniqe and complex gameplay making spec feel whole, same you could say about other our core abilities`shred`or `rake` those just "dps buttons" but together they are dps rotation and gameplay element belonged to certain spec.
if you so eager to remove all uninteresting spells go on apply to blizzard, make your own feral - but will it be our beloved ferals you have all choosed to play, doubt it...

Whitepaw
Honored
Posts: 130
Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:00 am

Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Whitepaw » Mon Nov 30, 2015 5:16 am

@Zstriker

SR is incredibly boring, because it has 0 interaction with the target. None. The other finishers have interaction with the target (with Maim having the most interesting interaction - should I CC or damage the target?) and they can even crit.

SR should die in a fire in it's current form.

Zstriker
Honored
Posts: 189
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 12:55 pm

Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Zstriker » Mon Nov 30, 2015 8:25 am

mate do you know what this ability do...
even it not interact directly it's still affect your whole rotation,
not all aspect have to be active one, otherwise it would be also boring and adding more complex, which developers not really want to and doing otherway around, as examples: removing front attack mangle and replace it with shred, baking pounce nad revange into rake and shred.
now putting SR and BT on same tier - forcing us in choice to press a bit different rotation with less dps activity overall, less thinking from player

Dysheki
Revered
Posts: 410
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:41 am

Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Dysheki » Mon Nov 30, 2015 10:28 am

Zstriker wrote:
Kojiyama wrote: The skill itself is not interesting,
...
My argument for SR has always been that is essentially ties up an action bar slot for something that could be more interesting.
..
I
can I go further
[sarcasm=on]
rip is not interesting - it's just a dot
rake is not interesting it's another blant dot doing damage over time
shred - pff dull cp generator, just press it = win
bloodtalons - seriously it's so complex for me to use that is not appealing to my tase - uninteresting spell PLZZ BLIZZ REMOVE IT
[sarcasm=off]
Pretty much how I feel when people say an ability is uninteresting. Nothing in this game is interesting in itself, it's a sum of it's parts.

User avatar
Kraineth
Revered
Posts: 331
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:26 am
Contact:

Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Kraineth » Mon Nov 30, 2015 1:26 pm

Whitepaw wrote:@Zstriker

SR is incredibly boring, because it has 0 interaction with the target. None. The other finishers have interaction with the target (with Maim having the most interesting interaction - should I CC or damage the target?) and they can even crit.

SR should die in a fire in it's current form.
And yet the fact that it has no effect on your current target is the entire reason it is interesting. In WoD beta they tried making bleeds update dynamically with SR, and we got that swiftly reverted because of how integral the thought process of putting up SR before putting up bleeds is to the feral playstyle.

If anything, the only thing that should "die in a fire" is how ridiculously long bleed times have gotten, making the base rotation ridiculously easy to navigate.

The only difficulty in the base spec these days is Snapshotting TF (if you don't use the class trinket), Dealing with occasional SR+Rip timer overlaps, and doing your best to overcome the big issues of priority targets in every fight designed in the past 3 expansions.

Kojiyama
Revered
Posts: 478
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2015 1:47 pm

Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Kojiyama » Mon Nov 30, 2015 1:33 pm

When I say SR is 'uninteresting' it is because it has no direct impact at all and could functionally be baked into a passive ability with virtually no major impact to anything--even our WoD rotation. (Given that you can get away with casting it.. what.. like 6-7 times every 10 minutes? lol)

It ties up a hotbar slot that could provide significantly more mechanical depth than SR currently provides. Almost anything that actually interacted with the target, our debuffs, bleeds, an AoE finisher, etc. would be more tactically involved than SR.

Other than keeping it up, there is no thought process behind SR. It doesn't matter what the target it, how long it's living, your energy total, whatever.. you just have to keep SR up. The only reason we even have it is for it to be a crappy Slice and Dice clone--which is a legacy I think we should be trying to break away from. (Slice and Dice is passive for Assassination Rouges in WoD anyway...) I would estimate the general consensus about SR is probably not that it is 'beloved'...but I could be wrong. :)

I would also argue that if SR was anything remotely interesting, Glyph of Savagery would not (and could not) exist.
Image

Xanzara
Posts: 25
Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2014 8:09 am

Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Xanzara » Mon Nov 30, 2015 2:17 pm

I agree with Kojiyama there as well, SR is a very uninteresting button to push other than the resource management aspect of a somewhat seldom buff you need to maintain.
The resource management aspect IS interesting to me, but the button itself is not. I've said so before, but even a 42 second dot that cost 5 cp/25 energy and do not snapshot at all would be more interesting (even thou it would be functionally VERY similiar) as it would atleast give you more gameplay in multi-dotting scenarios.

What if, for example, Maim gave you a stack per combo point that increases your next bleed by x% damage. On single-target it would still be used in a similiar fashion to SR (~40-45 seconds, or 3 rakes, 2 rips) but would feature a whole boatload more gameplay in for example multi-target scenarios. That's just something I made up in 10 seconds, point is - the complexity budget could be better spent on another more interesting ability without simplifying the resource gameplay namely.

teddabear
Revered
Posts: 346
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2012 6:56 am

Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by teddabear » Mon Nov 30, 2015 4:09 pm

Anything interesting would be more complicated and Blizzard is going in the opposite direction. It would be really easy to make it much more compelling, just bring back snapshotting. I doubt anybody could come up with anything even remotely close to as fun as snapshotting.

Kojiyama
Revered
Posts: 478
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2015 1:47 pm

Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Kojiyama » Mon Nov 30, 2015 4:22 pm

To be fair, that's is effectively what they are letting people decide by pitting it against Bloodtalons.
Image

User avatar
Sibylle
Revered
Posts: 477
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:51 am
Location: Ireland

Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Sibylle » Mon Nov 30, 2015 5:54 pm

aggixx wrote:The skill itself is not interesting, its what it does to how you think about and use combo points that is interesting. When you take away SR maintaining Rip on a single target becomes totally brainless because it is literally impossible to not reach 5 combo points in 24 seconds.
Which was pretty much exactly my point...?
-Sibylle

"Not a shred of evidence exists in favor of the idea that life is serious." (Brendan Gill)

Kojiyama
Revered
Posts: 478
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2015 1:47 pm

Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Kojiyama » Mon Nov 30, 2015 7:03 pm

IMO, I would argue that FB vs. Rip is the majority of the CP decision-making even with SR in the situation. Usually it's aggressive FBs that will mess up your rotation not SR refreshes.

Since SR can be refreshed with minimal detriment even with 1 CP, there is not many cases where you would have to think too hard about SR vs. Rip in any reasonably low duration of Rip. However, there are definitely cases where aggressive FBing has a role--Soul Capacitor/Ring, short-duration adds, Berserk--yet very few cases where aggressive SR makes any sense.

Between Glyph of Savage Roar, the long duration on pandemic SRs, and the execute refresh on Rip, the amount of times this even has a chance of happening with SR in the average HFC fight is like...maybe twice? Even in the default SimC profiles, Savage Roar is cast a whole 3.4 times vs. 22.4 FBs and 7.5 Rips. We actually use Thrash on ST due to OoC procs over twice as often (8.1) as SR, so it's hardly an integral part of our overall rotation currently.
Image

User avatar
Polihayse
Revered
Posts: 459
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:46 am

Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Polihayse » Mon Nov 30, 2015 7:11 pm

Isn't the patch before legion going to complete break class trinket? I'm not sure if someone brought this up at all since I haven't kept up with most of the forum posts.

User avatar
Tinderhoof
Exalted
Posts: 2234
Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 10:21 pm

Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Tinderhoof » Mon Nov 30, 2015 7:54 pm

There has not been anything said, but it is a good bet that the proc chance will drop to almost nothing on any character 101 and up.

teddabear
Revered
Posts: 346
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2012 6:56 am

Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by teddabear » Mon Nov 30, 2015 8:06 pm

I'm hoping the shorter bleeds talent will be a significant dps boost, it seems like it has a lot of potential to make gameplay more interesting.

Ehrenfailed
Honored
Posts: 51
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:42 pm

Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Ehrenfailed » Mon Nov 30, 2015 11:52 pm

well, my guess is that it will be one key talent to cleave fights. But not be used for max dps in single target encounters. but thats just a guess, I really hope I will get my beta invite again this time.

Treeba
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2013 3:17 am

Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Treeba » Tue Dec 01, 2015 12:32 am

Ehrenfailed wrote:well, my guess is that it will be one key talent to cleave fights. But not be used for max dps in single target encounters. but thats just a guess, I really hope I will get my beta invite again this time.
It's going to be pretty strong on every type of encounter... especially when paired with Blood Talons.

I'm fairly happy with the new talents overall. The only big thing I was hoping for and didn't see what an aoe ability that required combo points instead of just energy. I guess there is potential there with the main artifact ability.

User avatar
Tinderhoof
Exalted
Posts: 2234
Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 10:21 pm

Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Tinderhoof » Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:00 pm

They aren't going to do an AoE finisher. I said this a few times.

Treeba
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2013 3:17 am

Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Treeba » Tue Dec 01, 2015 4:05 pm

Probably not, but there is room for a potentially interesting aoe finisher in a "SR as a talent" world.

It doesn't make or break the talents for me, but it would've been the icing on the cake.

teddabear
Revered
Posts: 346
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2012 6:56 am

Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by teddabear » Tue Dec 01, 2015 4:24 pm

I can't figure out who the SR talent is for. Everybody that wants SR will take BT imo.

User avatar
Tinderhoof
Exalted
Posts: 2234
Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 10:21 pm

Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Tinderhoof » Tue Dec 01, 2015 5:39 pm

Well until they adjust numbers SR is by far the best talent. Post number adjustments I'm guessing each will be favorable depending on the fight. Moment will be terrible as is.

Post Reply