Datamined Legion Talents

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aggixx
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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by aggixx » Tue Dec 01, 2015 7:56 pm

Istaro wrote:
aggixx wrote:Bloodtalons essentially effects a fixed ratio of abilities (just faster and faster with more gear)
As an aside, I think this is not quite the case and that's what Firnafth was saying at the top of this page. For the sake of illustration, consider the case of 0% crit and 100% crit; with 0% crit, BT would affect 1/3 of our abilities (2 out of the 6 constituting each cycle, i.e. builder builder builder builder builder finisher), whereas with 100% crit, it would affect 1/2 of our abilities (2 out of the 4 constituting each cycle, i.e. builder builder builder finisher).
Hmm, that's true, didn't think of it that.
Sibylle wrote:
aggixx wrote:The skill itself is not interesting, its what it does to how you think about and use combo points that is interesting. When you take away SR maintaining Rip on a single target becomes totally brainless because it is literally impossible to not reach 5 combo points in 24 seconds.
Which was pretty much exactly my point...?
I wasn't disagreeing with you. I said "I don't think anyone was arguing that" and then reiterated what you said.
Kojiyama wrote:IMO, I would argue that FB vs. Rip is the majority of the CP decision-making even with SR in the situation. Usually it's aggressive FBs that will mess up your rotation not SR refreshes.

Since SR can be refreshed with minimal detriment even with 1 CP, there is not many cases where you would have to think too hard about SR vs. Rip in any reasonably low duration of Rip. However, there are definitely cases where aggressive FBing has a role--Soul Capacitor/Ring, short-duration adds, Berserk--yet very few cases where aggressive SR makes any sense.

Between Glyph of Savage Roar, the long duration on pandemic SRs, and the execute refresh on Rip, the amount of times this even has a chance of happening with SR in the average HFC fight is like...maybe twice? Even in the default SimC profiles, Savage Roar is cast a whole 3.4 times vs. 22.4 FBs and 7.5 Rips. We actually use Thrash on ST due to OoC procs over twice as often (8.1) as SR, so it's hardly an integral part of our overall rotation currently.
I think you're thinking too much from a veteran's perspective. You don't have to think about it because the "right" way to do things is second nature to you. Whether or not you think that is significant is subjective, but if you think it's not I'm guessing a much less experienced player would disagree.

You can definitely also argue that deciding Rip vs. FB is second nature as well and there is a significant thought process there, but there's a difference: when the system is reduced to solely Rip and FB, having the combo points available to Rip when you need them is not only likely, it is mathematically certain as long as you don't Ferocious Bite at a particularly bad time. This significantly guts the feeling that combo points are precious and that you need to generate and spend them very wisely to have the best possible result.
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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Sibylle » Wed Dec 02, 2015 6:09 am

Ah I see. Sorry aggixx, my brain is slightly flu-foggy these days :)

So what do we do? Tweet to the devs? Or keep it in the forum thread?
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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Lavan » Wed Dec 02, 2015 7:34 am

SR may just go back to how it worked back in WotlK and only increase autoattack damage.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Kojiyama » Wed Dec 02, 2015 10:44 am

Tinderhoof wrote:They aren't going to do an AoE finisher. I said this a few times.
Which is really unfortunate... probably one of the odder decisions from their standpoint, honestly. Should really be a talent similar to Crimson Tempest. A shame.
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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Tinderhoof » Wed Dec 02, 2015 1:10 pm

SR may just go back to how it worked back in WotlK and only increase autoattack damage.
That was Cata that that happened. WotLK started with boosts AP by 30% and later changed to flat damage when Ferals figured out gemming Strength was the best way to game SR.

As for it going to auto attacks that won't happen. The auto attack was meant to be a way to make SR less punishing to be players who were not able to keep it up 100%. If it were to revert to that in the final DPS tier it would never be a talent anyone would take.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Tinderhoof » Wed Dec 02, 2015 1:19 pm

Which is really unfortunate... probably one of the odder decisions from their standpoint, honestly. Should really be a talent similar to Crimson Tempest. A shame.
You hit on exactly why they won't di it. Rogues already have it. They want as few duplicate abilities as possible. I know equivalent abilities exist already but with out a clear need there is no reason to make Feral continue to be viewed as the poor mans rogue. Before you say anything THEY don't feel it a need even if we might.
Personally I feel that having an AoE finisher would be a bad thing for us. Often AoE is a situation which needs to be reactive. With the flow of the rotation it makes it super disruptive to have to react by spending combo points. It also would have to be Super powerful to be worth it because you would only get one shot in.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Twitchys » Wed Dec 02, 2015 1:47 pm

Is there a good reason that swipe generates CPs? The only finisher one may have to use in aoe situations is SR (if taken in Legion), so I was never clear on why we even had an aoe CP generator, especially since blizz doesn't want us to use swipe as a shred replacement on 2-3 target fights. It would make more sense to me to remove the CP portion of swipe and then it would be much simpler to tune competitively. I might be missing something.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Polihayse » Wed Dec 02, 2015 2:07 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:Personally I feel that having an AoE finisher would be a bad thing for us. Often AoE is a situation which needs to be reactive. With the flow of the rotation it makes it super disruptive to have to react by spending combo points. It also would have to be Super powerful to be worth it because you would only get one shot in.
I was going to say this same thing. The amount of dps it would need to do must factor in the very likely problem of the disruption to the single target rotation and the dps loss that is the result. The reactive part is probably the bigger problem, but I find the disruption to the single target rotation to be more annoying.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by AsgardFM » Wed Dec 02, 2015 2:18 pm

We'll have to see how it all calculates out but I think Bloody Swipes is on to a good middle ground for AoE. Can't be spammed over long durations which means it can be more powerful per cast, fitting with most aoe situation requirements in WoD.
SR is always going to be causing divides in the Feral community, everyone has their own opinion on it's design and position in rotation so a talent really is the only place for it to go. I think the only problem it has right now are the surrounding talents. People that enjoy SR tend to be the ones that enjoy BT yet they're competing with each other (hard to class Moment as a competitor in its current state). Setting BT as baseline or a different talent line would probably be the best way to go, assuming something equally "rotation changing" can be found as a replacement.

Also, did you all notice the tweet about "many" Draenor Perks becoming baseline? Hardens my expectations that the good Artifact perks will also be retained going forwards while providing a plausible explanation for getting rid of the bad ones.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Tinderhoof » Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:00 pm

Twitchys wrote:Is there a good reason that swipe generates CPs?
Honestly I think that is why Swipe is so bad right now. It didn't used to generate combo points at all because they didn't want us to use it rotationally. In MoP they added the chance to add a combo point if it hit our primary target. It wasn't until Warlords that you could get more than one combo point per hit if you crit. I believe they meant it as a QoL change to make it less disruptive to our rotation. However it made them nerf it hard so it was a 0 sum change.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Tinderhoof » Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:33 pm

Polihayse wrote:The reactive part is probably the bigger problem, but I find the disruption to the single target rotation to be more annoying.
My point was having to act reactively with built up resources causes rotational disruption, so I feel it's a single problem.
AsgardFM wrote:We'll have to see how it all calculates out but I think Bloody Swipes is on to a good middle ground for AoE. Can't be spammed over long durations which means it can be more powerful per cast, fitting with most aoe situation requirements in WoD.
I would agree if it was only limited in one way. Right now it is limited both by the 45 energy cost, and the charges. I believe charges should be enough to prevent rotational use. Adding the energy cost adds disruption which I feel is not necessary if we already are limited by charges.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Tinderhoof » Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:39 pm

AsgardFM wrote: Also, did you all notice the tweet about "many" Draenor Perks becoming baseline? Hardens my expectations that the good Artifact perks will also be retained going forwards while providing a plausible explanation for getting rid of the bad ones.
We have already seen what is happening to all of our percs.
- TF, Stealth, and Berserk have all been baked in.
- Rake's stun from stealth stays but the 200% damage is gone.
- Damage perks for FB, Shred, and HT bonus heals are meaningless because they can just adjust the ability itself during tuning.
- Lastly Rejuv from cat form is gone.
Honestly I'm glad none of those would end up on our artifact weapon because most of them are pretty boring, and limiting the first row of stuff until max level is kinda lame.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Treeba » Wed Dec 02, 2015 5:08 pm

Kojiyama wrote:
Tinderhoof wrote:They aren't going to do an AoE finisher. I said this a few times.
Should really be a talent similar to Crimson Tempest. A shame.
We already have Crimson Tempest. It's just Thrash that costs cp instead of energy. Which is probably the biggest reason we won't see an aoe finisher. We already have the ability that would've made the most sense as an aoe finisher.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Tinderhoof » Wed Dec 02, 2015 5:24 pm

The two aren't even comparable. It does direct damage in addition to the bleed, and gives buffs to poisons based on combo points. But if I recall it is an ability that is used about as much as Swipe is for us because it just doesn't compare to the versatility of Blade Flurry.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Kojiyama » Wed Dec 02, 2015 5:26 pm

Treeba wrote:
Kojiyama wrote:
Tinderhoof wrote:They aren't going to do an AoE finisher. I said this a few times.
Should really be a talent similar to Crimson Tempest. A shame.
We already have Crimson Tempest. It's just Thrash that costs cp instead of energy. Which is probably the biggest reason we won't see an aoe finisher. We already have the ability that would've made the most sense as an aoe finisher.
That's the problem though. CPs are a resource--in fact, they are our most powerful resource. As long as Thrash doesn't cost CPs the damage it deals will need to be lackluster. Energy is innately less powerful than CPs and therefore any ability that only converts Energy will be limited in potential power level.

A finisher can be significantly more powerful without being potentially broken. Thrash is a halfway-house solution by not generating CPs, but that effectively caps the net loss at 1-2 CPs for the global.

If Thrash was converted into a finisher the damage could be boosted very significantly for the 5 CP version as it would be allowed to compare to the damage allocated to FB/Rip and not the damage of Shred/Swipe.

I would argue that having a way to convert CPs into AoE damage is a big reason our AoE damage will continue to suck. The Rogue duplication argument feels a little weak to me because there is pretty much nothing for resource spenders/generators that is going to be different between Ferals and Rogues considering that our core mechanics are identical. If they don't want duplication then they should splinter our resources into something different...as they are doing with many classes in Legion. This doesn't sound like a good reason to hold back something so basic as an AoE finisher.
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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Treeba » Wed Dec 02, 2015 6:47 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:The two aren't even comparable. It does direct damage in addition to the bleed, and gives buffs to poisons based on combo points. But if I recall it is an ability that is used about as much as Swipe is for us because it just doesn't compare to the versatility of Blade Flurry.
It only buffs poisons for assassination. Other than it's the same concept just has the numbers moved around a bit. You could make Thrash a finisher it they would basically be the same ability. I don't have a problem with that though. Rip and FB are basically just Rupture and Evis with the numbers moved around a bit. The make us feel different in other ways even though we push abilities that are basically clones. Rake being somewhat of an exception. SR (and formerly inquisition) are the same basic finisher as S&D. They adjust it slightly, but it serves the exact same function. We're not really that different from Rogues. It's a very easy transition to make.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by AsgardFM » Wed Dec 02, 2015 6:56 pm

Some new Retribution abilities have appeared in the latest patch.
Blessing of Kings Name Changed from Blessing of Kings [NYI] to Blessing of Kings. Places a blessing on an ally that grants them an absorption shield. It absorbs up to 333 [*130.6% of Holy Spell Power* damage, and will be refreshed to full strength every 6 sec, even if fully consumed. Limit 3. 30 yd range. Instant. You may only have 3 total active of Blessing of Kings, Blessing of Might, and Blessing of Wisdom. Paladin - Retribution Spec. 30 yd range. Instant.

Blessing of Might Name Changed from Blessing of Might [NYI] to Blessing of Might. Places a blessing on an ally that causes their attacks to have a chance to deal an additional 333 Holy damage. Limit 3. 30 yd range. Instant. 10% chance to deal 30% additional damage as Holy. You may only have 3 total active of Blessing of Kings, Blessing of Might, and Blessing of Wisdom. Paladin - Retribution Spec. 30 yd range. Instant.

Blessing of Wisdom (New) Places a blessing on an ally that causes them to gain 1% of maximum mana every 15 sec, and have a chance when damage is taken to be healed for 5% of maximum health. You may only have 3 total active of Blessing of Kings, Blessing of Might, and Blessing of Wisdom. Paladin - Retribution Spec. Instant.
Blessing of Kings seems like a fairly basic damage mitigation utility (aside from the fact that it's on a DPS spec) but the other two worry me a bit. Are we going back to begging certain classes for their individual buffs? I hoped we'd left that behind with Cataclysm's Dark Intent and Unholy Frenzy. Similar situation to the Mark of the Wild rework that someone on here picked up on a while ago.

Also interesting to see Rebirth gain a (minor) rage cost. Are bears going to finally be able to use this without shifting or using DoC proc?

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Tinderhoof » Wed Dec 02, 2015 7:57 pm

Kojiyama wrote:If Thrash was converted into a finisher the damage could be boosted very significantly for the 5 CP version as it would be allowed to compare to the damage allocated to FB/Rip and not the damage of Shred/Swipe.
If the other said finisher was actually used because it was effective I might be inclined to agree with you. But it doesn't get used because it's not effective.
Kojiyama wrote:This doesn't sound like a good reason to hold back something so basic as an AoE finisher.
Since there is only one in the game, and it's not even used I fail to see how that is something basic.

The simple answer here is they don't want to do an AoE finisher. It has not proved to be an effective tool, and I honestly doubt it would be one even if they gave it to us. Unlike Rogues we generate combo points much more slowly. Any AoE ability we have needs to be reactive and finishers aren't reactive. They are there to fit into a rotation. If it isn't time in the rotation to spend 5 combo points, but you have to anyway because an AoE pack spawned, and now the rotation is off, that isn't compelling game play. To be effective we would need to sit on combo points and energy. This isn't fun. So why put a mechanic that has a high skill cap and won't be liked unless its super OP?

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by ShmooDude » Wed Dec 02, 2015 11:26 pm

Watching the discussion, removing the CPs from swipe and buffing its damage is probably the best solution. The entire reason they gave it combo points in the first place (iirc) was because they were switching Savage Roar from auto attacks back to all damage, and thus needed to be up for AoE. With Savage Roar being opt-in as a talent now, this is no longer necessary. Question is can we get them to do that.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Treeba » Thu Dec 03, 2015 12:30 am

ShmooDude wrote:Watching the discussion, removing the CPs from swipe and buffing its damage is probably the best solution. The entire reason they gave it combo points in the first place (iirc) was because they were switching Savage Roar from auto attacks back to all damage, and thus needed to be up for AoE. With Savage Roar being opt-in as a talent now, this is no longer necessary. Question is can we get them to do that.

The only issue I have with that is SR still exists as a talent option. If you pick the talent you still need to keep the buff up. If you're not generating combo points you're also not able to proc Bloodtalons. Kind of pushes you into Elune's Guidance. I don't want them to design us around not being able to generate cp while aoeing.

I'm not actually trying to push for an aoe finisher. I simply thought it would be interesting to see one as a talent.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Polihayse » Thu Dec 03, 2015 3:14 pm

I'm pretty sure Crimson Tempest is used on sub rogues. If you are using it in 2 target cleave, then you want to have two ruptures up, but after that, tempest is ahead of eviscerate assuming the target does not have find weakness on them.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Tinderhoof » Thu Dec 03, 2015 4:53 pm

I'm pretty sure as soon as 2 target cleave happens they swap to Combat.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Dysheki » Thu Dec 03, 2015 8:17 pm

No, rogues are still sub at 2 target cleave.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Tinderhoof » Thu Dec 03, 2015 9:28 pm

Fair enough. Looking at sub logs on 2 target logs and I am not seeing any that are using the finisher.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Polihayse » Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:23 pm

It might have changed since the buffs, but it was the best choice at one point.

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