Datamined Legion Talents

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teddabear
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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by teddabear » Fri Dec 04, 2015 12:35 am

My problem with an AoE finisher is I think it requires an energy regen rate that is higher than is optimal for good gameplay. Certainly in this last tier another way spend combo points is appealing, but I am hoping it doesn't get anywhere near that high again.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Nich » Fri Dec 04, 2015 6:55 am

So there's Crimson Tempest, which is marginally used by one spec sometimes. But what about Divine Storm? Ret paladins have a CP finisher too.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Tinderhoof » Fri Dec 04, 2015 1:02 pm

If Divine Storm cost something in addition to HP I might be inclined to agree with you. It only costs 3 HP and Rets have a talent that can give free 3 HP finishers for free on random proc that can proc off of itself. Not even close to comparable.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Cantor (Shredable) » Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:13 pm

Just accept that Feral isn't setup to have an AoE finisher - our CP generation is too low, unlike Rogues, who generate them almost as quickly as they can spend them. Even with Swipe generating 2 points, the energy cost is very high, and our energy regen rate is also not comparable to that of a Rogue. They could do something like making Rip functionally identical to Rupture (lasts longer per CP, deals the same amount of damage per tick no matter how many points you spend) to give us something to use CPs on during AE situations, but I don't think it's particularly necessary.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by ShmooDude » Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:24 pm

Yeah, the only way they could make a properly balanced aoe finisher would be to have it be like FoK for sub, where each hit generates a CP so you'd basically put up thrash and then alternate swipe and the aoe finisher, but it would probably cause other balance problems since we could then dump insane ST damage via FB into a single target.
Cantor (Shredable) wrote:They could do something like making Rip functionally identical to Rupture (lasts longer per CP, deals the same amount of damage per tick no matter how many points you spend) to give us something to use CPs on during AE situations, but I don't think it's particularly necessary.
That could actually bring some interesting gameplay. At the moment for a 5 CP rip to be better than FB it has to last I think its 10 seconds. You could expand that so that rip could be used (more effectively) on medium duration adds (~8-12 seconds). It would bring back some of the combo point play we're losing with savage roar (since its currently the only ability you should use with <5 CPs aside from an emergency rake refresh in execute range using FB).

It'd look something like (@ 100 damage/tick):
1 CP: 400 damage over 8 seconds
2 CP: 600 damage over 12 seconds
3 CP: 800 damage over 16 seconds
4 CP: 1000 damage over 20 seconds
5 CP: 1200 damage over 24 seconds

Though it would make the single target rotation slightly easier which is something a lot of ferals don't want.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by aggixx » Fri Dec 04, 2015 5:33 pm

I don't see how having an AoE finisher would be superior to alternative solutions in any way. The only benefit you gain by it being a finisher is that it will do a bit more damage in 1 GCD, but a generator AoE skill or some completely combo point detached skill can still be balanced to be just as strong overall. This is in contrast to the huge drawback of a finisher disrupting the flow of the rotation (say goodbye to that Rip on the boss) and being unwieldy to use thanks to our slow resource generation (get those combo points ready! aaaand you're energy capping sitting at 5 combo points).
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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by teddabear » Sat Dec 05, 2015 4:02 pm

Considering how similar the Artifact is to a talent tree it's hard to draw any conclusions until we have seen the Artifiact. On that note I really hope they release the Artifact tree for Feral soon so people can start giving feedback.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Kojiyama » Sat Dec 05, 2015 10:37 pm

Cantor (Shredable) wrote:Just accept that Feral isn't setup to have an AoE finisher - our CP generation is too low, unlike Rogues, who generate them almost as quickly as they can spend them. Even with Swipe generating 2 points, the energy cost is very high, and our energy regen rate is also not comparable to that of a Rogue. They could do something like making Rip functionally identical to Rupture (lasts longer per CP, deals the same amount of damage per tick no matter how many points you spend) to give us something to use CPs on during AE situations, but I don't think it's particularly necessary.
Not sure I agree with this. You could easily make the 1 CP or 2 CP version the same power as Thrash is now and it would be virtually identical to what Thrash currently does. The extra potential scaling would just be gravy that we can't really have currently without an ability being overpowered relative to CP-spenders.

Essentially Thrash can only ever have a budget equivalent to 1-2 CP finishers as otherwise it would throw the balance of CP value out whack.

Swipe is also a questionable example because we can see how pathetic they insist on the damage being as a generator. They are dead-set on having Swipe weak enough to not be viable on 1-2 targets, therefore it can never really be better than half a Shred. This severely limits the potential damage it will ever deal.

Pooling CPs for AoE waves and prepping for it would just be part of the skill cap of playing the class...nothing wrong with that. Worst case, as I mentioned, you just make the 1-2 CP versions similar to Thrash and no harm done. There's not really anything specific about the current Feral mechanics that is incompatible with an AoE finisher.
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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Kojiyama » Sat Dec 05, 2015 10:43 pm

aggixx wrote:I don't see how having an AoE finisher would be superior to alternative solutions in any way. The only benefit you gain by it being a finisher is that it will do a bit more damage in 1 GCD, but a generator AoE skill or some completely combo point detached skill can still be balanced to be just as strong overall. This is in contrast to the huge drawback of a finisher disrupting the flow of the rotation (say goodbye to that Rip on the boss) and being unwieldy to use thanks to our slow resource generation (get those combo points ready! aaaand you're energy capping sitting at 5 combo points).
Isn't more AoE damage in 1 GCD is kinda a big gap in our toolset, though? We severely lack burst AoE and that will never be attainable with the current setup of Swipe and Thrash.

Combo point detached skills really don't accomplish anything too much in terms of damage scaling potential--they still just count on (1+Crit%) CP costing abilities. Unless you put the ability on cooldown (which would probably be worse than Energy regen, since at least we have TF/OoC to help with that,) you can't really do too much with it without breaking the equilibrium of finisher vs. generator DPS.

If Rip falls off the boss sometimes, so be it. It's up to us to figure out in what situations that is useful and what situations it isn't. I thought people were happy with that kind of decision-making a few pages back on this thread? :)
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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Sibylle » Sun Dec 06, 2015 6:36 am

Decision making is not the same as a clunky, unwieldy mechanic.

We need burst AoE, yes, but having to build 5 CP for it kind of defeats the purpose. It would get us to "save" CPs, delay using a finisher, perhaps energy cap and other suboptimal gameplay, just so we have the 5 CP available when those adds spawn. I'd much rather they buffed our regular AoE abilities - even if none of them generated CPs - because that actually requires decision making and advance planning to prevent Rip from falling off the boss.
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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Rayen » Sun Dec 06, 2015 12:02 pm

Sibylle wrote:Decision making is not the same as a clunky, unwieldy mechanic.

We need burst AoE, yes, but having to build 5 CP for it kind of defeats the purpose. It would get us to "save" CPs, delay using a finisher, perhaps energy cap and other suboptimal gameplay, just so we have the 5 CP available when those adds spawn. I'd much rather they buffed our regular AoE abilities - even if none of them generated CPs - because that actually requires decision making and advance planning to prevent Rip from falling off the boss.

I have to agree with this. A finisher, isn't what we need. Brust Aoe is what we need. Drop the CP fom swipe and let our AOE but Thrash->Swipe spam. Gives us a dot for longer adds and dedicated damage for short lived adds.
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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by teddabear » Sun Dec 06, 2015 4:22 pm

Rayen wrote:
Sibylle wrote:Decision making is not the same as a clunky, unwieldy mechanic.

We need burst AoE, yes, but having to build 5 CP for it kind of defeats the purpose. It would get us to "save" CPs, delay using a finisher, perhaps energy cap and other suboptimal gameplay, just so we have the 5 CP available when those adds spawn. I'd much rather they buffed our regular AoE abilities - even if none of them generated CPs - because that actually requires decision making and advance planning to prevent Rip from falling off the boss.

I have to agree with this. A finisher, isn't what we need. Brust Aoe is what we need. Drop the CP fom swipe and let our AOE but Thrash->Swipe spam. Gives us a dot for longer adds and dedicated damage for short lived adds.
I like the Bloody Slash design but I agree this change to Swipe still needs to happen. The diminishing returns on combo point generation for Swipe are so extreme that generating combo points from it is a waste. I've tried it against huge mobs and it is extremely rare to get more than 2. I think you would have to hit a billion targets to get 5 combo points.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Istaro » Sun Dec 06, 2015 8:44 pm

teddabear wrote:I like the Bloody Slash design but I agree this change to Swipe still needs to happen. The diminishing returns on combo point generation for Swipe are so extreme that generating combo points from it is a waste. I've tried it against huge mobs and it is extremely rare to get more than 2. I think you would have to hit a billion targets to get 5 combo points.
I don't think it can generate more than two; it simply generates one combo point, triggering another from Primal Fury if any of the hits were crits (which is why more targets means a higher chance of two CPs).
Kojiyama wrote:They are dead-set on having Swipe weak enough to not be viable on 1-2 targets, therefore it can never really be better than half a Shred. This severely limits the potential damage it will ever deal.
Man, there are *so* many ways for the devs to have their cake and eat it too there. The most obvious, dumb way would be to have Swipe deal X damage if it hits one or two targets and Y (Y>X) if it hits more. Or have it refund part of its energy cost if it hits more than two targets. Or (my personal favorite ;)) have it cause damage in a circle around each target hit, resulting in quadratic scaling for tightly-packed targets like that one Shaman ability. All of these I thought of in about five seconds—imagine the possibilities if a dev or two actually put some thought into it!

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by teddabear » Sun Dec 06, 2015 9:53 pm

Istaro wrote:
teddabear wrote:I like the Bloody Slash design but I agree this change to Swipe still needs to happen. The diminishing returns on combo point generation for Swipe are so extreme that generating combo points from it is a waste. I've tried it against huge mobs and it is extremely rare to get more than 2. I think you would have to hit a billion targets to get 5 combo points.
I don't think it can generate more than two; it simply generates one combo point, triggering another from Primal Fury if any of the hits were crits (which is why more targets means a higher chance of two CPs).
Kojiyama wrote:They are dead-set on having Swipe weak enough to not be viable on 1-2 targets, therefore it can never really be better than half a Shred. This severely limits the potential damage it will ever deal.
Man, there are *so* many ways for the devs to have their cake and eat it too there. The most obvious, dumb way would be to have Swipe deal X damage if it hits one or two targets and Y (Y>X) if it hits more. Or have it refund part of its energy cost if it hits more than two targets. Or (my personal favorite ;)) have it cause damage in a circle around each target hit, resulting in quadratic scaling for tightly-packed targets like that one Shaman ability. All of these I thought of in about five seconds—imagine the possibilities if a dev or two actually put some thought into it!
I could have sworn I did get 3 a couple times but that makes more sense. I don't think it takes anything terribly innovative, just drop the combo points and increase the damage by 50-60%.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Satrion » Sun Dec 06, 2015 10:03 pm

Of course there are many ways feral AoE could be good if they wanted to but the fact remains they don't want to. The devs are on record several times and as recently as Blizzcon saying they want feral to be single target specialists. It seems to me that the plan is for longer living stuff we will still rake spam and Bloody Slash gives us a tool we haven't had in a long time to deal with burst AoE situations (think Mythic Mannaroth imps). I'm sure we will still be behind the AoE heavy hitters but it will make us less of a burden on a fight where a big pack dieing on time is the key to the fight. I don't really agree with that philosophy, but it seems to be what they are going with.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Dysheki » Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:15 am

Sibylle wrote:Decision making is not the same as a clunky, unwieldy mechanic.

We need burst AoE, yes, but having to build 5 CP for it kind of defeats the purpose. It would get us to "save" CPs, delay using a finisher, perhaps energy cap and other suboptimal gameplay, just so we have the 5 CP available when those adds spawn. I'd much rather they buffed our regular AoE abilities - even if none of them generated CPs - because that actually requires decision making and advance planning to prevent Rip from falling off the boss.
We already have to save CPs for targets that need to die asap, don't really see how that is so different than our current mechanics.

Look, I don't care what they do as long as it's possible to do some form of meaningful aoe dps. Along with some form of burst fps to help the raid down those short ttl adds. Just give us the tools and I'm happy with whatever.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Nich » Mon Dec 07, 2015 11:01 am

Tinderhoof wrote:If Divine Storm cost something in addition to HP I might be inclined to agree with you. It only costs 3 HP and Rets have a talent that can give free 3 HP finishers for free on random proc that can proc off of itself. Not even close to comparable.
Opportunity cost? <.<

I was thinking moreso in terms of how it interacts with their single target rotation, eg hitting FB adds a % increase or chance to proc an AOE ability, finisher or otherwise. Even if we don't - yes, we won't - get an AOE finisher, surely there's scope to make interesting gameplay decisions by making thrash interact with something else. At a long stretch, inverse proportional chance to proc for free based on number of CP used, to encourage low CP FB spam to fish? Thrash hits harder on targets with it already up, to make lots of OOC procs in AOE slightly more useful?

Even if it was just a case of each FB making the next thrash cost less CP, and making thrash cost CP so it has meaningful impact, wouldn't that reduce the concern of it not being reactive and the player being stuck with having just used a (poorly time) single target finisher as adds spawn? Replace thrash in this paragraph with whatever lever they give us to not be awful for AoE - blood slash looks interesting but I suspect it's going to put them into a situation of 'they can't have it too often because crazy burst, but now we are constrained on how often adds can spawn or they'll QQ'. Whatever AoE, let it interact meaningfully rather than just be a button.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Kojiyama » Mon Dec 07, 2015 12:57 pm

Dysheki wrote:
Sibylle wrote:Decision making is not the same as a clunky, unwieldy mechanic.

We need burst AoE, yes, but having to build 5 CP for it kind of defeats the purpose. It would get us to "save" CPs, delay using a finisher, perhaps energy cap and other suboptimal gameplay, just so we have the 5 CP available when those adds spawn. I'd much rather they buffed our regular AoE abilities - even if none of them generated CPs - because that actually requires decision making and advance planning to prevent Rip from falling off the boss.
We already have to save CPs for targets that need to die asap, don't really see how that is so different than our current mechanics.

Look, I don't care what they do as long as it's possible to do some form of meaningful aoe dps. Along with some form of burst fps to help the raid down those short ttl adds. Just give us the tools and I'm happy with whatever.
Exactly. I don't really get the aversion to CP-based gameplay here. Seems odd to me.

We are a CP class. Thrash already "breaks" the model somewhat and generally introduces oddies into our rotation that are pretty unnecessary. Removing CP from Swipe is not the solution, IMO. CPs are our priority resource...mechanics that ignore it just don't make sense from a design and class perspective.

There are a million ways to make CPs work for AoE. Also, remember that non-generator may appear free but for the purposes of maintaining priority target damage, all of them are 'mini-finishers' that 'cost' 1-2 CP by virtue of not generating 1-2 CP.

An AoE finisher doesn't have to be "clunky." It just has to be scaled and costed in a way that is fair. Like I said before, you could make Thrash at 1 CP do exactly the same thing as Thrash does now and it would still be balanced roughly the same as it is currently. Making it a finisher is almost completely upside-only. Legion also gives us access to a talent that generates on-demand CP...so there's that too.

One of the silliest things for us is in pure AoE situations where we are generating plenty of CPs but have almost no reason to actually use a finisher at all. That is a straight up massive design flaw for a CP-based class.
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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Nephera » Mon Dec 07, 2015 4:01 pm

Kojiyama wrote:Exactly. I don't really get the aversion to CP-based gameplay here. Seems odd to me.
I completely agree with this. Especially since you don't have to use it if you think you shouldn't sacrifice single target damage. But if your raid needs the additional AoE, I think we should at least have the option to provide it (even if it would be slightly weaker or we won't do much to the boss alone). I see absolutely no reason for them not to give us anything to deal with AoE situations other than the talent (which doesn't seem much useful to me). There are a lot of ways they can make an AoE finisher that works differently than rogues one. I'm always so frustrated during AoE that I have all those CPs, but nothing other than SR to use them up for. It seems really illogical like that.

Swipe not giving CPs is not good either, even though you would still theoretically gain those from Raking the targets. If that happened, you would only have the option of going full single or full AoE, nothing inbetween. You either dot everything (or just the boss) or Swipe it all for no CPs. I always like in in fights like Beastlord, Xhul'horac that I could take advantage of add spawns and Swipe instead of Shreding for almost sure 2 CPs. Would miss it greatly if it were gone :(. I feel like there is completely no reason to do this, because AoE finisher doesn't bother anyone at all, but still would be a way for people that need more AoE damage to get more of it. If you would think your Rip and optionally SR are fine on the boss then you could also use it to do more DPS or time your dots with add spawns so you can get more out of that. I feel like our gameplay would only gain from this.

(Yes, yes, I know, there will be no AoE finisher, but I reaaally think it's a shame)

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by aggixx » Mon Dec 07, 2015 7:28 pm

Kojiyama wrote:If Rip falls off the boss sometimes, so be it. It's up to us to figure out in what situations that is useful and what situations it isn't. I thought people were happy with that kind of decision-making a few pages back on this thread? :)
Few specs have huge AoE burst in one GCD, most are backloaded or distributed over at least a few GCDs. Having your damage loaded into one GCD is simply unnecessary for the vast majority of situations in PvE. Burst AoE can just as easily be achieve in our toolkit with a finisher as without a finisher.
Kojiyama wrote:If Rip falls off the boss sometimes, so be it. It's up to us to figure out in what situations that is useful and what situations it isn't. I thought people were happy with that kind of decision-making a few pages back on this thread? :)
Not when the decision process being present inherently cripples the potency of the spec. This discussion was never about making the spec more complicated, it was about making it competent.


I think the whole "remove the CP and make it do more damage" is ridiculous. Would that be superior to what we have currently? Yes it would, but that doesn't justify the total regression of design involved in removing combo point generation when you could "just" increase the damage by the same amount and solve the problem far better. There is an extremely good reason why they gave Swipe combo point generation, so much so that they even increased it this expansion after adding it last expansion: because spending energy to completely stall your combo point generation is not fun, interesting, or flexible. It is simply worse from every perspective.
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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by aggixx » Mon Dec 07, 2015 7:36 pm

Polihayse wrote:It might have changed since the buffs, but it was the best choice at one point.
Sub scaling this tier with the trinkets, set bonuses, upgrades, etc has left the other specs in the dust. Combat was better on 2 targets at some point pretty sure.
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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by ShmooDude » Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:08 pm

aggixx wrote:I think the whole "remove the CP and make it do more damage" is ridiculous. Would that be superior to what we have currently? Yes it would, but that doesn't justify the total regression of design involved in removing combo point generation when you could "just" increase the damage by the same amount and solve the problem far better. There is an extremely good reason why they gave Swipe combo point generation, so much so that they even increased it this expansion after adding it last expansion: because spending energy to completely stall your combo point generation is not fun, interesting, or flexible. It is simply worse from every perspective.
You make a good point, I think we're saying (or at least its what I'm saying) if its either or that we'd prefer more damage over the CP. They've stated numerous times that they don't want to bump swipe in damage anymore because they don't want it to be viable on 2 targets. The only way to get enough damage out of swipe to be useful would require it to basically match shred in damage. The new aoe talent for example (probably not number tuned yet) hits ~50% harder than shred and 3x as hard as Swipe (640% Shred vs 318% Swipe vs 954% Bloody Slash).

The reason for this is its tuned to be compared to shred. The problem with this is a couple things. There is no AoE finisher, meaning swipe has to function in conjunction with thrash to be all of our aoe damage, and it competes with shred as a CP generator. That's why you constantly see people going one of those two routes when suggesting (either give an AoE finisher or remove CPs to buff the damage).

A good option that keeps the combo points would be that swipe only generates combo points if it hits 3 or more targets (they've done similar in the past for various abilities). Then it can never compete with shred as a generator on 2 targets, but retains its combo points for AoE situations. It could then theoretically hit hard as shred, but not be used in 2 target cleave situations which I think is what they're looking to avoid.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by trifrost » Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:50 pm

Prehaps an AOE move that pulse a 6 yard shred level damage and refund energy if it hit 3 target or more to prevent using it on 1 or 2 target?

Bloody Scratch -45 energy. Refund 20 energy if hit 3 target or more
1 combo - 6 yard Shred around target every 1 sec for 2 sec duration
2 combo - 6 yard Shred around target every 1 sec for 3 sec duration
3 combo - 6 yard Shred around target every 1 sec for 4 sec duration
4 combo - 6 yard Shred around target every 1 sec for 5 sec duration
5 combo - 6 yard Shred around target every 1 sec for 6 sec duration

With the combo pt increasing only the duration, we do not need to cap our combo pt and we can launch our aoe at any combo pt level. We can just start Thrash and tab rake to get the combo pt and easily maintain the aoe.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Kojiyama » Mon Dec 07, 2015 11:24 pm

aggixx wrote:I think the whole "remove the CP and make it do more damage" is ridiculous. Would that be superior to what we have currently? Yes it would, but that doesn't justify the total regression of design involved in removing combo point generation when you could "just" increase the damage by the same amount and solve the problem far better. There is an extremely good reason why they gave Swipe combo point generation, so much so that they even increased it this expansion after adding it last expansion: because spending energy to completely stall your combo point generation is not fun, interesting, or flexible. It is simply worse from every perspective.
I definitely agree Re: Swipe, I don't think it makes any sense. I'm not sure I understand why Blizz has such a problem with Swipe on 2 targets. If they honestly are so opposed to anything having to do with effective Feral AoE, it seems like you could almost ditch Swipe and make FB cleave or something like that. (Similar to the AoE philosophy of Frost Mages.) Feels like we are in no-mans-land in regard to their design of our AoE abilities and we just need some kind of more focused direction.

Your last point is honestly why I don't like Thrash as a Energy-expensive non-finisher as well. I just don't feel like it fits very well. For example, why not just make Thrash cost 10 Energy? Lower the initial damage to compensate. It's a DoT, why does it have to be 50 Energy? What purpose does it serve other than eating increasing how many effective CPs it eats up. (It also ends up eating up more CPs as you get better gear and a higher Crit rate based on the Energy:CP ratio from Shred/Rake.) Again, comes down to them not wanting us to use it on ST... seems like the answer for everything. We just need a more cohesive design that isn't chipped down by "reasons" all the time.

It's actually really odd because it feels like there are so many ways to make Feral AoE mechanically less terrible than it is now.
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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Polihayse » Tue Dec 08, 2015 8:07 am

I feel like if they gave us a way to actually manage our energy regen that is not simply RNG then this aoe problem would be much easier to solve.

Also, what is stopping them from simply giving us a talent like Dragon Roar that costs no resources?
Last edited by Polihayse on Tue Dec 08, 2015 8:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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