Datamined Legion Talents

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Polihayse
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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Polihayse » Tue Dec 08, 2015 8:15 am

aggixx wrote:
Polihayse wrote:It might have changed since the buffs, but it was the best choice at one point.
Sub scaling this tier with the trinkets, set bonuses, upgrades, etc has left the other specs in the dust. Combat was better on 2 targets at some point pretty sure.
I was talking about crimson tempest being used as sub against 2 targets.

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aggixx
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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by aggixx » Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:27 am

Polihayse wrote:
aggixx wrote:
Polihayse wrote:It might have changed since the buffs, but it was the best choice at one point.
Sub scaling this tier with the trinkets, set bonuses, upgrades, etc has left the other specs in the dust. Combat was better on 2 targets at some point pretty sure.
I was talking about crimson tempest being used as sub against 2 targets.
Oh I failed at reading something at some point, wrong post to reply to.
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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by teddabear » Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:31 am

aggixx wrote: I think the whole "remove the CP and make it do more damage" is ridiculous. Would that be superior to what we have currently? Yes it would, but that doesn't justify the total regression of design involved in removing combo point generation when you could "just" increase the damage by the same amount and solve the problem far better. There is an extremely good reason why they gave Swipe combo point generation, so much so that they even increased it this expansion after adding it last expansion: because spending energy to completely stall your combo point generation is not fun, interesting, or flexible. It is simply worse from every perspective.
I don't see why it has to come to that either but Blizzard has set this artificial limit on Swipe damage and the only thing that has changed is it now gives combo points. It has been my experience that when you really need Swipe to do more damage combo points are not a big concern. You are usually in a situation where none of the targets will live long enough for Rip, FB is not a good return on investment and you have already refreshed SR. I'd much prefer they just buff Swipe but if I have to choose I would choose more damage and no combo points.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Nich » Wed Dec 09, 2015 10:08 am

Never going to happen, but..

Thrash stays as is, but:

a) at 5cp, applies/refreshes rake to all targets

b) applies rake to x targets, where x = CP when pressing thrash - prioritising targets that don't already have rake on them.

Marginal gameplay advantage to timing CP held for wave spawns, but if you muck it up, just rake or swipe a few times to get going again. It'd be nice if they then buffed swipe but it doesn't have to, really, because it's a QoL improvement type filler.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Polihayse » Thu Dec 10, 2015 5:16 am

Nich wrote:Never going to happen, but..

Thrash stays as is, but:

a) at 5cp, applies/refreshes rake to all targets

b) applies rake to x targets, where x = CP when pressing thrash - prioritising targets that don't already have rake on them.

Marginal gameplay advantage to timing CP held for wave spawns, but if you muck it up, just rake or swipe a few times to get going again. It'd be nice if they then buffed swipe but it doesn't have to, really, because it's a QoL improvement type filler.
If it is a great idea, then why would it never happen?

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Sibylle » Thu Dec 10, 2015 5:20 am

I honestly don't get why it would be such a problem to give us solid AoE. If we left everyone in the dust on single target, I could understand. But we don't, and there are plenty of classes/specs who have both single target and AoE. Why push some specs into a niche but not others? I *really* don't get it. I mean, the hybrid tax is a thing of the past, or so they told us, isn't it?
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Rayen
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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Rayen » Tue Dec 15, 2015 5:48 pm

Got some updates today in the notes:

Feral
Bloody Slash: Strike all nearby enemies in a flurry of blood slashes, inflicting 954% Physical damage to each. Awards 1 combo point. Maximum 3 charges.
Replaces Swipe.
Now requires Level 100, up from 75

Healing Touch: Heals a friendly target for (360% of Spell power).
Cost changed from 10.4% of base mana to 9.0% of base mana

Savage Roar: Finishing move that increases physical damage done by 40% now 30% while in Cat Form. Lasts longer per combo point:

Now requires Level 75, down from 100



So now we need to choose between SR, Inc and Soul.

Bloody Slash, Bloodtalons and Clarity. for 100.

So for most fights, looks like BT. Aoe Fight is Slash? Clarity is still meh.
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Cantor (Shredable)
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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Cantor (Shredable) » Tue Dec 15, 2015 6:00 pm

Interesting, I didn't think they'd move the location of SR, but makes some sense I suppose. I still feel it's turned too high - Inc would need to do a ridiculous amount of date to compete with +30% damage all the time - but it does retain the Feral playstyle for those that want it. Personally I've been using SR since WotLK and am a little tired of it; although the glyph made it much more bearable in WoD I was looking forward to not having to worry about it.

Edit: It would appear they've massively reduced the duration of Roar as well in this build:

1 point: 8 seconds
2 points: 12 seconds
3 points: 16 seconds
4 points: 20 seconds
5 points: 24 seconds

This is down from 18 / 24 / 30 / 36 / 42. It starts with a 10 second shorter duration and only increases in increments of 4 rather than 6 - a pretty hefty nerf, you'll spend a lot of time maintaining Roar as opposed to how it is on Live; trying to take Roar and Jagged Wounds early on in the expansion is just going to be a recipe for disaster.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Batlecruiser » Tue Dec 15, 2015 7:56 pm

Looks like Roar, Rip, Bite, Roar, Rip, Bite, ... Rotation (not considering Lvl 90 talents)

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AsgardFM
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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by AsgardFM » Tue Dec 15, 2015 8:17 pm

It makes sense that the duration (and amount of Bites cast) has been reduced. The only other solution to dealing with SR would have been to reduce the damage bonus to something fairly minor (10%?) in order for other talents to compete. Even in it's new form, 30% to all our damage is tricky to balance against an extra 2-3 Bites per Rip. Still expecting to see some changes to Incarnation bonuses though.

Was a little surprised to see this change without any other talents/Artifacts appearing alongside it but it makes sense if the Alpha is down for Christmas. I guess they just pushed it out to have 5 extra days of testing for the available specs. Some data is better than none, right?

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Cantor (Shredable) » Tue Dec 15, 2015 9:15 pm

AsgardFM wrote:It makes sense that the duration (and amount of Bites cast) has been reduced. The only other solution to dealing with SR would have been to reduce the damage bonus to something fairly minor (10%?) in order for other talents to compete.
That's pretty much what I was expecting. The fact that this only lasts 8s at 1CP is fairly horrible - do we have any info on whether the SR glyph is being removed? Having to go Rake > Roar > desperately try to hit 5CPs in less than 8s sounds like a blast from the past, and not a pleasant one. In addition, the 75 tier looks to be largely ST-focussed now unless I'm being dense: you don't use finishers while AoEing generally, so that discounts SotF; Inc only buffs Shred now, so Rake-tabbing isn't helped there at all; so SR is the most AoE-based talent of the tier (if Swipe continues to generate CPs).

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by ShmooDude » Tue Dec 15, 2015 10:39 pm

Cantor (Shredable) wrote:
AsgardFM wrote:It makes sense that the duration (and amount of Bites cast) has been reduced. The only other solution to dealing with SR would have been to reduce the damage bonus to something fairly minor (10%?) in order for other talents to compete.
That's pretty much what I was expecting. The fact that this only lasts 8s at 1CP is fairly horrible - do we have any info on whether the SR glyph is being removed? Having to go Rake > Roar > desperately try to hit 5CPs in less than 8s sounds like a blast from the past, and not a pleasant one. In addition, the 75 tier looks to be largely ST-focussed now unless I'm being dense: you don't use finishers while AoEing generally, so that discounts SotF; Inc only buffs Shred now, so Rake-tabbing isn't helped there at all; so SR is the most AoE-based talent of the tier (if Swipe continues to generate CPs).
Actually, based on that duration, you probably would want to 5 CP a roar at that point anyhow rather than having another low CP SR.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Nepplol » Wed Dec 16, 2015 4:09 am

Did they finally activate Feral spec on alpha ?

EDIT : No they don't :/

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Zstriker » Wed Dec 16, 2015 4:48 am

good, one step is done, now would be nice to swap `incarnation` with `moment of clarity`
so we get AoE talent - Bloody Slash, sustain ST - Bloody Claws, and burst - Incarnation
Actually, based on that duration, you probably would want to 5 CP a roar at that point anyhow rather than having another low CP SR.

you can add pandemic seconds to it , yet there is still whole artifact talent tree, which I bet would include some of glyph and SR one for sure
also it seems they trying to make SR a little cd like TF, not a must to maintain buff

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by AsgardFM » Wed Dec 16, 2015 7:01 am

I doubt that SR will appear in the artifact tree now that it's talent. From other specs that have been revealed only base abilities have been affected. That's not to say that we might have other bleed duration bonuses or some energy/cp gains in there.

I also wondered about not expecting full uptime but that will be tricky to pull off perfect timing with dots. And basically impossible on two target fights.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Cantor (Shredable) » Wed Dec 16, 2015 7:21 am

Max duration of 31.2 secs on the new Roar - at lower gear levels it would certainly be a struggle to maintain Rip on 2 targets and you'd likely go for SotF in that situation, excluding a burst window where Inc might be more useful.

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Polihayse
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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Polihayse » Wed Dec 16, 2015 11:43 am

It would be funny if they reduced Savage Roar's damage and duration only to have it be buffed back to where it was by an effect on the artifact weapon.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Zstriker » Wed Dec 16, 2015 12:53 pm

if it's a talent , they could also make it changeable inside artifact tree, depending on what you choose , rather increase SoT energy regen or increase duratation of SR / incarnation

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Tinderhoof » Wed Dec 16, 2015 2:19 pm

Modifying a whole talent row on the artifact weapon is kinda silly. Since we are going to be able to unlock and max out the whole thing pretty quickly it would make it a pretty unsatisfying to have an incomplete talent row from 75-110+. If they need to modify talents they will just modify the talents.
Cantor (Shredable) wrote:Max duration of 31.2 secs on the new Roar - at lower gear levels it would certainly be a struggle to maintain Rip on 2 targets and you'd likely go for SotF in that situation, excluding a burst window where Inc might be more useful.
As I mentioned on Twitter I think this is intentional. SR was designed from the start to make our single target powerful but still restricted to a single target. It's power will drop off significantly as soon as additional targets need to be attacked. It still may be too high damage wise, but we are so far away from tuning, it's simply a mechanical change.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by teddabear » Wed Dec 16, 2015 6:30 pm

The new tree makes much more sense. Giving up Bt to do aoe is pretty painful but at least it makes some sense. With that kind of penalty I feel Bloody Slash should be tuned extremely high.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Thandorr » Mon Dec 21, 2015 10:23 pm

teddabear wrote:The new tree makes much more sense. Giving up Bt to do aoe is pretty painful but at least it makes some sense. With that kind of penalty I feel Bloody Slash should be tuned extremely high.
Isn't 1k weapon damage pretty high? lol

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by ban2015 » Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:10 am

I was a little skeptical myself to see SR made into a talent and placed in the same tier as BT. But, I agree with the "wait and see" comments. The only thing I thought I would add is: presumably, we will get a Level 110 talent as well. We haven't seen anything about that and likely will not for a while. That talent could be significant in how SR and BT function in the spec. Blizz seemed to indicate there wouldn't be much changes in our spec, but it seems to me the changes are significant enough. But, I've enjoyed the BT rotation a lot. What other dps spec starts their opener with a healing spell? I think I'm a little sad to see that potentially go away...

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Polihayse » Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:36 am

Is feral playable yet?

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AsgardFM
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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by AsgardFM » Tue Dec 22, 2015 12:24 pm

The alpha went down last night and is due to remain offline over the Christmas break. Feral was still not available at the time it went down.
Now it's wait and see what's available in January.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Tinderhoof » Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:41 pm

ban2015 wrote:The only thing I thought I would add is: presumably, we will get a Level 110 talent as well.
The Artifact weapons will fill the top end selection for abilities. There won't be a 110 talent row.

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