Datamined Legion Talents

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Kraineth
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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Kraineth » Mon Feb 15, 2016 4:51 pm

aggixx wrote: To me the use of "copy" seems very deliberate and like it knows exactly what its trying to convey. We'll see.
We use FB on targets all the time that have no Rip on them because it is not worth the cast. Unless the spell applies bleeds we have on any target, a bite on a target without Rip would be risky. And then if the spell uses the same coefficients from BT/TF would it also default to the strongest current bleed we have on any target?

Sounds like a convoluted design compared to just applying an independent Rip and Rake to a target using the current buffs on our character.

If they wanted to accurately convey the idea of copying Rip and Rake to the target, the wording needs to be changed to:
When you Ferocious Bite a target, the spirit of Ashamane has a chance to copy shadowy versions of your currently active Rip and Rake effects to your target

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by aggixx » Mon Feb 15, 2016 5:51 pm

Kraineth wrote:We use FB on targets all the time that have no Rip on them because it is not worth the cast. Unless the spell applies bleeds we have on any target, a bite on a target without Rip would be risky.
It could be ineligible to proc if the target doesn't have both Rip and Rake on it.
Kraineth wrote:And then if the spell uses the same coefficients from BT/TF would it also default to the strongest current bleed we have on any target?
No? I don't see why it would imply that.
Kraineth wrote:Sounds like a convoluted design compared to just applying an independent Rip and Rake to a target using the current buffs on our character.

If they wanted to accurately convey the idea of copying Rip and Rake to the target, the wording needs to be changed to:
When you Ferocious Bite a target, the spirit of Ashamane has a chance to copy shadowy versions of your currently active Rip and Rake effects to your target
Perhaps, but if was to do what you say it does why doesn't it just say:
When you Ferocious Bite a target, the spirit of Ashamane has a chance to apply a shadowy version of Rake and Rip to your target.
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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by AsgardFM » Mon Feb 15, 2016 8:07 pm

I think that's entirely the problem: the wording is too vague and we're stuck guessing until it's fully implemented on Alpha.
It does seem out of place to be a trait designed for multi-target that is only a "chance" on Bite, lends itself to fights like Twin Ogron or Flamebender's dogs but has no benefit on pure ST and very little on <8 sec adds. That's not to say AoE-only traits exist but I can't find any others that are specifically split-target rather than AoE. Equally you've got to question the words and "copy" and "a". If it said "copy your version" then the answer would be pretty clear, just as if it said "apply a version". The current wording does seem to be designed to convey the most confusion possible but there have been other new abilities with questionable wording on their initial implementation.
As before, we're back to hoping that the next patch will be The One.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Istaro » Tue Feb 16, 2016 8:54 pm

Etapicx wrote:I love the idea of pvp talents as well!
Your post got me to look at our PvP talents again, as I hadn't in a while, and I had a fun thought: Pouncing Strikes + Balance Affinity (+ Incarnation, of course). If that works the way it should, it sounds fun enough (for large BGs, that is) that it might be sufficient to get me to try PvP again in Legion despite my misgivings about practically losing stealth.
AsgardFM wrote:As before, we're back to hoping that the next patch will be The One.
The fact that they just added our artifact is a good sign . . . right?

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Istaro » Fri Feb 19, 2016 8:09 am

It looks like we get Stampeding Roar again in build 21108, but still with a 10-yard range.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Kraineth » Sat Feb 20, 2016 2:15 am

We never lost stamp roar, just the root break and the range from the glyph.

On that note we definitely need the guttural roar talent that bear has to return it to 30 yards and reduce the CD. As is stands the heal talent in that row will not see much use if any at all, and giving us the option to give up some personal mobility to bring a modicum of utility to a group would be a good thing.

I've said this a few times in random places, but Balance gets Innervate and an artifact talent that makes it also grant the target 50% increased healing done for the duration. As it stands the 10 yard range on Stamp Roar would make it exceedingly frustrating to use in most raid encounters that it has ever been useful (which mind you isn't very many)
AsgardFM wrote:I think that's entirely the problem: the wording is too vague and we're stuck guessing until it's fully implemented on Alpha.
It does seem out of place to be a trait designed for multi-target that is only a "chance" on Bite, lends itself to fights like Twin Ogron or Flamebender's dogs but has no benefit on pure ST and very little on <8 sec adds. That's not to say AoE-only traits exist but I can't find any others that are specifically split-target rather than AoE. Equally you've got to question the words and "copy" and "a". If it said "copy your version" then the answer would be pretty clear, just as if it said "apply a version". The current wording does seem to be designed to convey the most confusion possible but there have been other new abilities with questionable wording on their initial implementation.
As before, we're back to hoping that the next patch will be The One.
There are spells added that are entirely different than our actual rake and rip, the talent is definitely good for single target, and is really only good for that and multi-target fights where Rip is worth putting on a second target. My main issue is the fact that it is RPPM, which I have never been a fan of to begin with. RPPM procs are meant to be inherently random so that you could get multiple procs in succession. The issue with that for Ashamane's Bite is that back to back procs feels less than ideal because you would just waste any extra time that the DoTs from the previous proc still had (outside of the pandemic range).

I also can't think of any RPPM effects off the top of my head that are so limited by what can actually proc them. FB is not used much at all, especially in the first tier, making it very easy to spend well over a minute without seeing a proc where the normal bad luck streak would virtually guarantee a proc if we actually cast it. It could get to a point where you choose to bite instead of Rip because you feel like a proc should be guaranteed, and then it doesn't proc and you just lost a ton of damage. Note that the Shadow Thrash talent also has these same issues on top of just being near useless on fights without adds unless thrash remains as a single target spell (which may well happen given the current set bonus we have granting shred 8% more damage per bleed on the target)

I am highly skeptical of both of these major talents, I think that Shadow Thrash should to be changed to something like http://legion.wowhead.com/spell=209573/void-cleave where the DoT effect triggers when thrash hits X number of targets. Then make it so that the effect cannot trigger more than once per minute to keep it balanced.

I'll hold off on saying that Ashamane's Bite should be changed until we can see the extent of how it works/triggers, but I would be wary of it having to meet too many conditions in order to proc.

But my main order of business as far as what I want from these talents is consistency and reliability.

I also find it completely hilarious that many people seem to agree that the +20% damage to bleeding targets on shred and swipe and the double crit chance on FB should be removed and then this is the first round of set bonuses that they have proposed:
Item - Druid T19 Feral 4P Bonus (New) Shred and Swipe deal 8% more damage per your Bleed effect on the target.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Istaro » Sat Feb 20, 2016 6:18 am

Kraineth wrote:We never lost stamp roar, just the root break and the range from the glyph.
The build 21108 changes appear to indicate that in build 21036, Stampeding Roar was a PvP talent for Feral, and I seem to remember as much from the PvP talent calculator.

But in any case, it's base now. But yeah, it needs to be at least 30 yards or else it's basically just a personal cooldown, i.e. a crappy second Dash.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by DomGF » Sun Feb 21, 2016 11:50 am

Would like to see Stampeding Roar being 30 yards for both guardian and feral. No talent, no nothing, BASE 30 yards. Reason being, its our raid utility, and realistically the only one.

Shamans get a totem that lasts 15 seconds and provides the same speed. So we fall back again to the issue we had during WoD, why even bring a feral if in the optimal world, both classes will provide same amount of damage but their version of utility is vastly superior (Even available for every spec).

I wish that Blizzard would apply the strong/weakness aspect to stuff like this.

Stampeding roar: 30 yard ability that buffs for 60% speed, one single use then it goes on CD.
Windrush Totem: 10 yard range from the totem that lasts 15s and will buff and refresh a 60% buff.

Do they want to have a talent linked to our utility that badly? Then here are other options!

Stampeding Roar:
Talent Increases the % of speed
Talent removes snare/slow effects.

Incapacitating Roar (Since our brother Guardians are linked on this):
Turns the ability into a stun resulting in damage not breaking it.

You can pick or mix more into that. Make the ability stronger not its range. Otherwise the result is being overshadowed by another class and a currently extremely boring talent in the case of Gutteral Roars and whichever we will obtain over Renewal.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by teddabear » Mon Feb 22, 2016 3:03 am

Kraineth wrote:
I also find it completely hilarious that many people seem to agree that the +20% damage to bleeding targets on shred and swipe and the double crit chance on FB should be removed and then this is the first round of set bonuses that they have proposed:
Item - Druid T19 Feral 4P Bonus (New) Shred and Swipe deal 8% more damage per your Bleed effect on the target.
It would be nice if somebody could make sure they get the memo that ramp up = bad.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Tinderhoof » Mon Feb 22, 2016 4:15 am

teddabear wrote:It would be nice if somebody could make sure they get the memo that ramp up = bad.
Why is that?

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Cantor (Shredable) » Mon Feb 22, 2016 4:35 pm

There's nothing wrong with ramp-up so long as it's relatively fast to do; Ramp-up that throttles damage unless you meet criteria that may be useless (ie, dropping all of our bleeds on to a target that needs to die before they get value) is a pain in the arse, and means you're actually better off NOT doing it if something dies too quickly. I see where he's coming from but don't necessarily agree.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Tinderhoof » Mon Feb 22, 2016 6:42 pm

Cantor (Shredable) wrote:Ramp-up that throttles damage unless you meet criteria that may be useless (ie, dropping all of our bleeds on to a target that needs to die before they get value) is a pain in the arse, and means you're actually better off NOT doing it if something dies too quickly.
Ramp up has nothing to do with quick death targets. Even if we could apply a free instant Rip (which we can in legion) a quick dying target is still going to die before we can do any meaningful damage to it. Quick burst is a problem for our class but ramp up has nothing to do with it. Ramp up is a skill cap which takes very little time to do proper, and can be planned for in advance for new targets.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Kraineth » Tue Feb 23, 2016 2:40 pm

I wasn't specifically referencing ramp-up so much as all of the conditions that need to be met in order for us to do our actual DPS.

Currently to do maximum damage to a target we need to have a bleed applied to them, or we are sacrificing 20% damage on Shreds and losing the double crit chance on Ferocious bite.

The proposed set bonus takes that even further by promoting the mindset of just never hard swapping to adds because in order to do maximum damage we would need to apply all 3 of our baseline bleeds.

I think it is fair enough that our highest Damage-Per-Energy spells are bleeds, and thus we will inherently do less damage to targets that can't live long enough to see them tick for full duration. But to compound the issue by making our lower Damage-Per-Energy spells also do less damage to targets we already shouldn't be putting bleeds on is just ridiculous. Even the equip effect on the legendary encourages us to just never hit a target that we wouldn't put a Rip on.

If they are trying to make us Single Target/Boss damage monsters then so be it, but I wouldn't expect us to out perform specs that actually bring bursty add damage by any considerable margin.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Nameky » Wed Feb 24, 2016 2:14 am

PH - Bleeds Last Forever Against Low HP Targets this is prob supposed to be an old part of our execute mechanic like after the Boss is below 25% you don't have to care about Rip (now all bleeds) anymore and can start Biting more. But since it effects all bleeds now we get a really long Ashamane's Bite which could end up in spamming Rip to maintain Open Wounds.
So while below 25% boss or long living add hp even if it's still dmg increase while not being on the target it would be like losing even more. So it's prob not such a idea to give us more reasons besides 4P or that we are awful at switching on short living targets to stay on our target.
If Ashamane's Bite is also effected by the legendary (which prob won't be the case) it would change the rip spamming (if it's worth) depending on time below 25% and the risk if it procs someone is willing to take.

If everything would work the 4P would be a 48% dmg increase if all bleeds are up.
Kraineth wrote: If they are trying to make us Single Target/Boss damage monsters then so be it, but I wouldn't expect us to out perform specs that actually bring bursty add damage by any considerable margin.
I thought this is the current state... FeelsBadMan

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by DomGF » Wed Feb 24, 2016 2:28 pm

Legendaries will be disabled for early weeks during new raiding content. I would not like to see a class/spec balanced expecting that they have to wait until you can actually use them to perform at the same level as others.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by AsgardFM » Wed Feb 24, 2016 4:00 pm

DomGF wrote:Legendaries will be disabled for early weeks during new raiding content. I would not like to see a class/spec balanced expecting that they have to wait until you can actually use them to perform at the same level as others.
I think they said legendaries will have enhanced stats but the Equip effects would not activate. Minor difference but a nice one to see. Not sure how easy the balancing will be though, some of these effects look like they can dramatically increase output and I still worry that some specs are either useless without or too strong with. I know Blizzard said they wanted some item upgrades to be more than +20 crit/mastery but I think some of the effects could do with being toned down a bit. Maybe have the Equip increase with new tiers?

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Tinderhoof » Wed Feb 24, 2016 6:27 pm

I'm not concerned that any spec/class is going to be underpowered with out these legendary items. I think they will balance as if no one gets any. I also think they are going to be pretty rare. But I share your feeling like anyone with one is going to be a bit outrageous. Even if they hold it back for a few weeks from raiding, it will still shape the race outside of the top 20. Having your guild bust ass but be passed because the other raid had a few legendary drops is just kind of a shitty feeling.

I'm not the first person to say this, but I do feel that if they have to add restrictions to items because they can influence the progression race that their entire existence is a problem.

I don't mind a bit of ridiculous items in the game. They can feel fun when things slow down. I just feel like they shouldn't be introduced until the final tier. Gives something for people to enjoy messing around with while things are slow. Released from the start makes them feel like "I must grind these" even if you really don't.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by ShmooDude » Wed Feb 24, 2016 6:50 pm

My understanding is the amount of legendary bonuses you'll be restricted to will increase over the course of the expansion (is the current plan). Initially (maybe a few weeks after raids open) it will be 1. Might be like 2 after next raid tier opens or something. *shrug* I'm also not sure that these will be quite as rare as people think but I could be totally wrong about that. I would guess more common than current world BoE drops are, given that these are BoP. Now whether we'll feel the need to "grind" for one (especially one with a really good bonus) is up in the air and will depend on the person.

I also wonder if they're planning on having secondary stats on these, or if the legendary bonus is supposed to replace that. None of them seem to have secondaries except the jewelry which has a single secondary and no primary (normal jewelry has 2 secondaries and no primary). It could explain why they are (potentially) so powerful as they'd have to overcome that lack of secondary. Much like a lot of weapons in ICC. It also could be that they simply haven't added them yet but I kind of doubt it. That's also not to say they couldn't change their minds if this is their current plan.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Tinderhoof » Wed Feb 24, 2016 7:59 pm

Your understanding is correct.

Doesn't change the point though. 2-3 people in a mythic raid after the first 2 weeks (or however many) with a legendary will have significant advantages over a raid that isn't so lucky. It doesn't matter if each class can only hold one at first. Going the entire expac with bonuses that can get out of control and ramping them up makes the issue worse. If they are beefy enough that they must restrict them for a time period they realize they are over powered. If they become too over powered and have to get nerfed that is kinda lame too. The person who farmed for a really long time to get one and than have it nerfed is going to understandably be really grumpy.

As far as stats go I'm pretty sure they all will have them, or they wouldn't be telling people that they will be ok to use in raids even if the affix isn't turned on at first.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by ShmooDude » Wed Feb 24, 2016 8:45 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:Your understanding is correct.

Doesn't change the point though. 2-3 people in a mythic raid after the first 2 weeks (or however many) with a legendary will have significant advantages over a raid that isn't so lucky. It doesn't matter if each class can only hold one at first. Going the entire expac with bonuses that can get out of control and ramping them up makes the issue worse. If they are beefy enough that they must restrict them for a time period they realize they are over powered. If they become too over powered and have to get nerfed that is kinda lame too. The person who farmed for a really long time to get one and than have it nerfed is going to understandably be really grumpy.

As far as stats go I'm pretty sure they all will have them, or they wouldn't be telling people that they will be ok to use in raids even if the affix isn't turned on at first.
Yeah, balance will definitely be something to keep an eye on. But they also haven't done a numbers tuning pass at all yet. Not to

I still think the plan is for them not to have secondaries much like the ICC weapons and then the affects should be slightly better (but not by much) than those secondary stats would have been (just like some of the icc weapons, others kinda sucked). I will be very surprised if that's not the case.

I do 100% agree though that they shouldn't be overpowered, though I'm sure some will be (and some will be underpowered). Blizz doesn't have an amazing record when it comes to balance (though its way better than it used to be). My feelings on it is cautiously optimistic, since I do like the idea a lot. It'll all be down to the details of the implementation.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Tinderhoof » Thu Feb 25, 2016 1:43 pm

ShmooDude wrote:I will be very surprised if that's not the case.
They would not be telling people that they will be useful in raids even if the affix is disabled if there were no secondary stats on them.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by ShmooDude » Thu Feb 25, 2016 10:18 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:
ShmooDude wrote:I will be very surprised if that's not the case.
They would not be telling people that they will be useful in raids even if the affix is disabled if there were no secondary stats on them.
The exact quote from the alpha forums says "(they will still function normally as high-ilvl regular items)" as in you can equip it. It doesn't necessarily say they will be superior or even an upgrade. Maybe they've said so elseware but my google/twitter search has failed to find any. If you got a link I'd love to read it. Again I may be completely off in left field here, but it seems the logical path for me. They liken them to Trinkets and Set bonuses. Set bonuses almost never have stats (and if they do its instead of an effect) and trinkets either have one stat, either primary or secondary, or one primary and 2 secondary stats.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by teddabear » Sat Feb 27, 2016 12:29 am

Tinderhoof wrote:
Cantor (Shredable) wrote:Ramp-up that throttles damage unless you meet criteria that may be useless (ie, dropping all of our bleeds on to a target that needs to die before they get value) is a pain in the arse, and means you're actually better off NOT doing it if something dies too quickly.
Ramp up has nothing to do with quick death targets. Even if we could apply a free instant Rip (which we can in legion) a quick dying target is still going to die before we can do any meaningful damage to it. Quick burst is a problem for our class but ramp up has nothing to do with it. Ramp up is a skill cap which takes very little time to do proper, and can be planned for in advance for new targets.
Unless you put a bleed on a target you aren't doing full damage but most of the bleed damage will be wasted on short-lived adds.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Tinderhoof » Sat Feb 27, 2016 4:19 am

Full damage on a quick dying add is the most damage you can do in the time/resources you have. If hitting Thrash first before hitting Bloody Slash will get the most damage you will do that. If just Hitting Bloody Slash twice does more damage you will just press that. "Ramping up" doesn't apply here. You are complaining just to complain. Give detailed feedback not general doom and gloom.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by teddabear » Sat Feb 27, 2016 10:24 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:Full damage on a quick dying add is the most damage you can do in the time/resources you have. If hitting Thrash first before hitting Bloody Slash will get the most damage you will do that. If just Hitting Bloody Slash twice does more damage you will just press that. "Ramping up" doesn't apply here. You are complaining just to complain. Give detailed feedback not general doom and gloom.
The issue is I am thinking of is the groups of 3 adds in the Temple of Jade Serpent on Garrosh. Feral was incredibly bad at those. Maybe it was lack of Cleave or Burst, as opposed to Ramp Up, but Feral was almost useless there. That said the new AoE ability should help in those situations. It does seem that a bleed pre-requisite in order to do full damage is outdated.

Currently it is no longer a big deal, if Bloody Slash doesn't get nerfed it should fill that void nicely. For me the number 1 thing I would like to see fixed is make Haste a better stat for Feral.

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