Datamined Legion Talents

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metaa
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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by metaa » Sun Jun 05, 2016 5:01 am

I think you could make them equal, and if people want to have more fun with a more "challenging" spec let them, but honestly I don't believe the new sr is challenging I just think it is irritating to play with.

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Tinderhoof
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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Tinderhoof » Sun Jun 05, 2016 1:58 pm

The path of least resistance is a phrase because it's true. If there is an active talent that if messed up will produce lower results, and a passive talent which is consistent, it's going to be chosen every time. I personally prefer a rewarding rotation. However all through out MoP I still chose Soul of the Forest over Incarnation for all but 2 fights (none in ToT, or SoO). If simple is equal, it will be chosen everytime.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by teddabear » Sun Jun 05, 2016 2:45 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:The path of least resistance is a phrase because it's true. If there is an active talent that if messed up will produce lower results, and a passive talent which is consistent, it's going to be chosen every time. I personally prefer a rewarding rotation. However all through out MoP I still chose Soul of the Forest over Incarnation for all but 2 fights (none in ToT, or SoO). If simple is equal, it will be chosen everytime.
This brings up an interesting question of what is rewarding. Obviously the answer is different for different people. This most rewarding ability for me personally was when Feral had HotW Tranquility. Using that really made me feel like I was contributing to our raid. Stampeding Roar never came close to that even when it was vital for a certain mechanic. It's too late now but Blizzard has removed so many rewarding abilities in the name of balance, purging and simplifying that I really feel they need to evaluate how to make specs feel more rewarding in the future. Something they could do now is take another look at Artifacts, and for the ones that have excessive passive abilities make some of them active abilities.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Whitepaw » Tue Jun 07, 2016 6:37 am

@Teddabear

Other recent examples:
- Removing Nature's Swiftness because of too high survivability/CC combos in PvP.
- Nerfing self healing via PS procs and Healing Touch because the healing output was deemed too high.
- Nerfing survivability of Bear Form as a Feral.
- Basically making CC abilities redundant by weakening adds, thereby making AoE a much better solution than CC and single-targeting mobs.

At the same time, other melee specs have retained valuable utility abilities, because if they lost those, the whole class would become redundant in end-game raiding content.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Shakrane » Tue Jun 07, 2016 11:09 am

Hello guys, long time since i didn't post.

For Legion I plan to keep playing feral as i do since BC. With a group of friend we will pby only do challenge/mythic dungeon (w/e it is called). I probably already know the answer but i would like to have feedback from you guys who have the chance to play on the beta. Do you think we will be viable ? I know the tuning is not down yet. So i'm not talking about dps, but more about mechanics, like for a boss it's easier with 2 tanks, or 2heals, or w/e wich our affinity could provide the answer to this encounter. It was just an exemple maybe there is other situation suitable for us. Or do you think as it is now on live for CM, feral will be more a dead weight than anything else.

Thx in advance!

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Arthael » Fri Jun 10, 2016 6:05 pm

Have any of you beta feral players considered the effect of legendaries and how it would affect talent/gameplay?
I know you can only wear one but it has been stated that more slots will open up as expansion progresses.
Hands: Critical damage from your bleeds have a 40% chance to trigger Primal Fury.
This, I assume, augments the existing primal fury whereby you have 40% chance on the bleed ticks to get the extra CP (and not just the initial damage).
If blood scent adds 10% to all abilities, and their subsequent DoT damage, if a bleed exists - then this of course will be a lock for the 15 tier (Even in AoE situations, as if it works like warriors & rage gen - then each tick on each target can generate an extra CP on crit @ 40% chance)
This does mean, you have to use Chest, Helmet, Shoulders, and Pants to get your 4 piece.
Finally, it also reduces effectivity of Elune's Guidance since you get CP more naturally and not capping/losing CP in return.

Conclusion: T15: +Blood Scent, T90: -Elune's Guidance
Ring: Increases your maximum energy by 100 in Cat form.
That means you start with 200 energy. This might be overkill since I have yet to see a full energy bar hit 0 with berserk active on live. However, this also means after coming out of berserk, you'll still have a decent pool to manage your abilities, and thus lets you get away with taking the very aggressive approach in Jagged Wounds & Bloodtalons, as you can pool more energy (increased cap) in the downtime.
Edit: Finally, this increases the effectiveness of Moment of Clarity (in certain cases) primarily because you have more room to pool, and thus allowing more burst sequences when MoC procs (that is, if you are bottomed out when it hits; if it hits when you are above a threshold, then you'll probably overcap. So, it can be worse or better depending on when it procs).

Conclusion: T100: +Bloodtalons, +/-Moment of Clarity
Feet: Gain 1 Stack of Predatory Swiftness ever 15s. Can now stack up to 3 times.
Uhh... hello best friend. I will grind the very depths of Legion to find you.
Bloodtalons is per Healing Touch cast; so this can net you 6 +30% boost abilities at the start - with possibly 2 more swiftness due to finisher & another stack from the item. You just cannot skip Bloodtalons with this item. Free +30% damage on 2 abilities every 15s.

Conclusion: T100: +++++++++++++++Bloodtalons

---
Overall it feels like Blood Talons will be an superior with every legendary, especially the feet - which I assume will be a staple if it moves on to live.
So technically almost all talent builds should revolve around making Blood Talons work.

Other than that, I think they should change Ashamane's Frenzy to affect all targets infront of the feral cat, as well as make Savage Roar an AoE Talent. This, I figure, be appreciated by the cat community - and give us an option to mix in some AoE to stay relevant in raids.
Last edited by Arthael on Sat Jun 11, 2016 12:36 am, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Istaro » Fri Jun 10, 2016 8:50 pm

Arthael wrote:
Ring: Increases your maximum energy by 100 in Cat form.
Finally, this reduces the effectiveness of Moment of Clarity primarily because you have more room to pool, and more energy to expend at a given time that getting 3 clear casting procs isn't AS beneficial (but definitely still viable).
Mightn't it actually help MoC by giving you more room to make use of it without capping energy?

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Arthael » Fri Jun 10, 2016 10:18 pm

Ah that is actually true.
I guess I am slightly biased against it due to not having T18 2p bonus anymore, but I see the benefit - letting you pool quicker when it procs so you have more to burst with in a time frame.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by teddabear » Sun Jun 12, 2016 12:19 pm

Does anybody else think the artifact or talent tree is a more appropriate place for some of these abilities?

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Arthael » Tue Jun 14, 2016 11:22 pm

I assume the change to Feral Instinct was just a tooltip change, but is the +% dmg bonus still only for 15s instead of 30 if we spec into Incarnation?!

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Tinderhoof » Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:43 pm

Arthael wrote:I assume the change to Feral Instinct was just a tooltip change, but is the +% dmg bonus still only for 15s instead of 30 if we spec into Incarnation?!
It's by design. They don't want it to make Incarnation to powerful.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Arthael » Thu Jun 16, 2016 6:32 pm

I understand that but without it there is no way Incarnation can compete with Savage Roar.
It falls behind 7-10% in every iteration.

If Incarnation does get the 15% added to its entire duration, then Incarnation & SR collapse within 1% of each other @ set bonus.

Quote from MMOChampion:
Well if they are not going to make the damage buff last for 30s with Incarnation, then it is going to fall significantly behind Savage Roar.

Currently ranked:
(Pre-setbonus & no 100% Shred Crit)
1. Savage Roar + Jagged Wounds
2. Savage Roar + Elune's Guidance (- 5.8%)
3. Incarnation + Elune's Guidance (- 10.14%)
4. Incarnation + Jagged Wounds (- 13.49%)

(4p Set bonus + 100% Shred Crit
you'll get this due to +15% crit chance from artifact trait + 5% from raid, only needing 30% from gear, less if blood scent is taken)
1. Savage Roar + Elune's Guidance
2. Savage Roar + Jagged Wounds (- 1.8%)
3. Incarnation + Elune's Guidance (- 6.9%)
4. Incarnation + Jagged Wounds (- 14.1%)

IF the trait buff of 15% gets added to the entirety of Incarnation duration:
(Pre-setbonus & no 100% crit on Shred)
1. Savage Roar + Jagged Wounds
2. Savage Roar + Elune's Guidance (- 5.78%)
3. Incarnation + Elune's Guidance (- 5.87%)
4. Incarnation + Jagged Wounds (- 9.4%)

(Set bonus & 100% crit on Shred)
1. Incarnation + Elune's Guidance
2. Savage Roar + Elune's Guidance (- 1.4%)
3. Savage Roar + Jagged Wounds (- 4.99%)
4. Incarnation + Jagged Wounds (- 13.7%)

In other words, SR will be King of the Jungle if Incarnation does not extend the % dmg bonus to 30s.
If it does, then, they both will be within 1% of each other with set bonus.

As predicted, Jagged Wounds will fall behind once the 4p set bonus comes into play.

Finally, Elune's Guidance seems pretty strong since it is, in theory, giving you 2 free finishers every 45s.
It pairs well with Savage Roar since you can easily force a SR refresh with this as well as gives a smoother opener with SR up right off the bat and Rip up shortly.
EG > SR | Prowl > Rake > Shred > Rip | AF > FB
Basically you use your initial burst of 5 to pop SR, then get an improved rake in - if it crits and you have 5 CP, go Rip; if not Shred > Rip. Ashamane's Frenzy + remaining EG will give you enough for FB.

It also lets you use Bloodtalons efficiently, as SR/JW kinda forces you to take Moment of Clarity; SR/JW/BT is still unmanageable as it stands.

Bloodtalons will easily be the best T100 talent due to how strong it is and the legendary that is tied to it.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Xanzara » Fri Jun 17, 2016 7:55 am

You can actually do both EG & SR while in Stealth so that opener is actually really good and reduces the awkwardness of SR opener significantly.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Tinderhoof » Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:39 pm

Arthael wrote:I understand that but without it there is no way Incarnation can compete with Savage Roar.It falls behind 7-10% in every iteration.
I can't disagree with that statement in the current balance.
I suspect that SR is coming down in tuning because if they want to make any attempt to make SotF relevant it won't be by trying to bring Incarnation up to SR.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by dinarus » Sat Jun 18, 2016 3:11 pm

Is Sabertooth that much weaker than other 2 90 talents ?

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Arthael » Sat Jun 18, 2016 11:59 pm

Sabertooth is bugged right now because it doesn't add the 15% armor penetration on Rip application with FB; that's why I didn't sim it --> but if it works properly, then:

The rankings will look like this (at the current tuning):
* Also, blood talons is the T100 tier. I didn't have time to really add Moment of Clarity to the picture.

1. SR + EG
2. SR + ST

3. Inc + EG
4. SR + JW
5. Inc + ST
6. Inc + JW

EG and ST pull ahead of JW (Wrt SR) because you can use blood talons (you cannot use SR/JW/BT atm)
Incarnation variation is ~ 8% behind SR variations.
Sabertooth (ST) variations are ~3.5% behind Elune's Guidance
That said, it *might* actually be better due to having a snapshotted Rip throughout the fight (shadow rip procs, use predatory swiftness on builders instead etc...) - will have to see based on fight.
I did not account for opener, where EG > ST cause of quick set up time.

A huge problem that I see with Elune's Guidance is overflow of CPs especially once you hit the 30% crit cap for Feral in Legion where your shred always crits giving you 2 CPs no matter what.
This combined with the legendary proc, you'll just have way too many CPs before you can use finishers, since you are inherently still resource locked.
This would make Jagged Wounds and Sabertooth the better choices, in time.

Then Jagged Wounds really falls behind cause you can't use BT with it (unless you use Incarnation), and of the 4p set bonus making shred more valuable.
Further more, with 15% armor ignore from Rip, more non-bleed attacks you do the better (since bleeds ignore armor, that artifact trait doesn't do anything for Jagged Wounds)

Finally, Sabertooth's issue is that it is only relevant for the first 75% of the fight (As after 25%, you get its effect anyway)
Unless, everytime Sabertooth is procced with FB, you get an instantaneous tick of Rip - then it probably becomes the best talent in the tier assuming you micromanage using FB after a Rip Tick to get double ticks - don't have time to test this, so if someone can; that'd be awesome

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Lenadha » Tue Jun 21, 2016 5:11 am

On the PTR currently what do people think of the talents now? I personally have serious issues keeping up rip and savage roar 100% without losing a lot of energy and combo points. I suppose I could do some non 5 point savage roars but, I was wondering if Incarnation was a viable choice now that it seems to be super long in duration now. I can't find any feral beta raid testing and or much information about ferals outside this forum.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Arthael » Mon Jun 27, 2016 11:45 pm

Try SR + ST.

Incarnation as of now is behind SR by a large margin, unfortunately. There might be some case for it once you get legendary & set bonus or if the tuning goes in its favor.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by ShmooDude » Tue Jun 28, 2016 4:55 pm

So it looks like double crit chance on FB is gone for good? Haven't seen anyone mention it in a while and its most definitely not present on the PTR (I got 51% crit chance and can easily get non-crit FBs on bleeding targets).

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Kirayus » Tue Jun 28, 2016 6:28 pm

Savage Roar Finishing move that grants 30% 25% increased damage to your Cat Form attacks for their full duration.
source-mmo-champion
Fucking Nerf!
Do you still think SR+ST is the best Solution?

Arthael wrote:Sabertooth is bugged right now because it doesn't add the 15% armor penetration on Rip application with FB; that's why I didn't sim it --> but if it works properly, then:

The rankings will look like this (at the current tuning):
* Also, blood talons is the T100 tier. I didn't have time to really add Moment of Clarity to the picture.

1. SR + EG
2. SR + ST

3. Inc + EG
4. SR + JW
5. Inc + ST
6. Inc + JW

EG and ST pull ahead of JW (Wrt SR) because you can use blood talons (you cannot use SR/JW/BT atm)
Incarnation variation is ~ 8% behind SR variations.
Sabertooth (ST) variations are ~3.5% behind Elune's Guidance
That said, it *might* actually be better due to having a snapshotted Rip throughout the fight (shadow rip procs, use predatory swiftness on builders instead etc...) - will have to see based on fight.
I did not account for opener, where EG > ST cause of quick set up time.

A huge problem that I see with Elune's Guidance is overflow of CPs especially once you hit the 30% crit cap for Feral in Legion where your shred always crits giving you 2 CPs no matter what.
This combined with the legendary proc, you'll just have way too many CPs before you can use finishers, since you are inherently still resource locked.
This would make Jagged Wounds and Sabertooth the better choices, in time.

Then Jagged Wounds really falls behind cause you can't use BT with it (unless you use Incarnation), and of the 4p set bonus making shred more valuable.
Further more, with 15% armor ignore from Rip, more non-bleed attacks you do the better (since bleeds ignore armor, that artifact trait doesn't do anything for Jagged Wounds)

Finally, Sabertooth's issue is that it is only relevant for the first 75% of the fight (As after 25%, you get its effect anyway)
Unless, everytime Sabertooth is procced with FB, you get an instantaneous tick of Rip - then it probably becomes the best talent in the tier assuming you micromanage using FB after a Rip Tick to get double ticks - don't have time to test this, so if someone can; that'd be awesome

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by ShmooDude » Tue Jun 28, 2016 10:11 pm

@arthael What are you using to sim?

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Arthael » Tue Jun 28, 2016 10:43 pm

ShmooDude wrote:So it looks like double crit chance on FB is gone for good? Haven't seen anyone mention it in a while and its most definitely not present on the PTR (I got 51% crit chance and can easily get non-crit FBs on bleeding targets).
I have been told its just a tooltip error, and its working as is on live on beta. But on all my sims, it doesn't net the added crit bonus.
Kirayus wrote:Savage Roar Finishing move that grants 30% 25% increased damage to your Cat Form attacks for their full duration.
source-mmo-champion
Fucking Nerf!
Do you still think SR+ST is the best Solution?
The nerf was pretty big lol - I get they are trying to balance the talent tier but failed again, and ended with us being further behind in ST to Assassins (who are comfortable 30% ahead of us).

Lunar Inspiration/Savage Roar/Sabertooth/Bloodtalons - 196492 [pre SR nerf]
http://imgur.com/xSxwd9U
Lunar Inspiration/Savage Roar/Sabertooth/Bloodtalons - 182481 [post SR nerf]
http://beta.askmrrobot.com/wow/simulato ... 5a398b73a8
Lunar Inspiration/Savage Roar/Sabertooth/Moment of Clarity - 181497 [post SR nerf]
http://beta.askmrrobot.com/wow/simulato ... cc2f39e443

So... MoC/BT are pretty darn close and you can obviously choose MoC if you want ease of play and still be decent (they achieved the "pick your talent and playstyle" effect here). That said, the legendary boots will obviously tip it in BT favor. Note, there is a good chance MoC might be better (if you don't have the legendary) once Thrash gives a combo point from set bonus, as you get more clearcasting procs to offload the added resource cost.

Bloodscent/Savage Roar/Sabertooth/Bloodtalons:
http://imgur.com/leCq5Pd --> Pre nerf
http://beta.askmrrobot.com/wow/simul...22370da87cbeef --> Post nerf
(195478 - Pre nerf; 179266 - Post nerf)

So again Blood Scent & Lunar Inspiration are within 2k of each other - and thus pretty close in viability depending on if you want a passive crit gain or another DoT to manage. Bloodscent also loses out on a lot of its flavor the more you gear up, as with BiS level - you can hit ~50% crit rating which is enough for FB to 100% crit (So you'd want like a crit level of 35% with gear and rest into mastery; due to having passive 10% from critical strikes buff and 5% from raid buff), and then you get Feral Power to 15% (which can amp up to 30% from artifact relics), giving your shred a 80% crit chance.

Ultimately, Lunar will pull ahead more and more cause of that.

---
All of the ones below are Pre-nerf SR, so reduce their DPS by ~15k
Bloodscent/Savage Roar/Jagged Wounds/Bloodtalons:
http://imgur.com/HSIslfW
(176042)

Bloodscent/Savage Roar/Elune's Guidance/Bloodtalons:
http://imgur.com/uIZP8XV
(165742)

--- These are post nerf SR, but that didn't affect their DPS.
Incarnation/ST/BT on the other hand (147615)
http://beta.askmrrobot.com/wow/simulato ... 5591b765bd

Interestingly: Incarnation/ST/MoC gives higher DPS (152916) but still nothing compared to SR.
http://beta.askmrrobot.com/wow/simulato ... 918b2abf2a

--
And finally for funsies:
BiS (Set Bonus, Legendary are not counted towards the DPS; with both of those active, you can hit close to 380k - was 400k before the SR nerf, qq.)
http://beta.askmrrobot.com/wow/simulato ... ca44836266

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by xfr » Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:47 pm

How is ST in practice for nightmare bosses? I can believe it sims highest on patchwerk but it only really works for pure tunneling which modern raid design avoids. In virtually all other scenarios ST is garbage. Moreover, ST completely destroys the depth of the feral rotation; spamming shred and FB is plain awful.

On the other hand, I found the SR+EG+BT rotation to be one of the hardest of all classes I tried on the PTR. It takes a lot of discipline and careful planning to avoid wasting CPs from EG; because of the desynchronized TF and EG cooldowns it is not easy at all to maximize SR+TF+BT rip uptime without support from weak auras. The upside it is that it gives a relatively strong burst window and much better potential for 2-3 cleave than ST in my opinion. But if the reward for choosing such a hard play style is inferior to the braindead ST, one may as well play a different class altogether.

At this point committing to a feral artifact looks like a very risky gamble, as it rules out mythic+ in addition to the questionable raid viability and high benching risk due to the many stronger melee alternatives.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Arthael » Wed Jun 29, 2016 12:03 am

xfr wrote:How is ST in practice for nightmare bosses? I can believe it sims highest on patchwerk but it only really works for pure tunneling which modern raid design avoids. In virtually all other scenarios ST is garbage. Moreover, ST completely destroys the depth of the feral rotation; spamming shred and FB is plain awful.

On the other hand, I found the SR+EG+BT rotation to be one of the hardest of all classes I tried on the PTR. It takes a lot of discipline and careful planning to avoid wasting CPs from EG; because of the desynchronized TF and EG cooldowns it is not easy at all to maximize SR+TF+BT rip uptime without support from weak auras. The upside it is that it gives a relatively strong burst window and much better potential for 2-3 cleave than ST in my opinion. But if the reward for choosing such a hard play style is inferior to the braindead ST, one may as well play a different class altogether.
The benefit of ST has nothing to do with ST itself, but with its synergy with the artifact talent: Ashamane's Bite.
I explained it on mmo-champion:
All of this inherently ties into the amazing artifact dragon we get: Ashamane's Bite.
Yes it is still a crappy 3% proc (pending tuning), but it is shadow damage that mirrors your Rip, that is your most powerful ability (And the most powerful ability in the game from a pure DPS impact perspective).

Sabertooth synergizes incredibly well with this, so much so that it is amplifying the DPS by nearly 5% over JW or EG.
1. Sabertooth snapshots your initial Rip for the rest of the fight; that is your strongest Rip - meaning any and all shadow rips will also mimic your strongest Rip.
2. Sabertooth increases your >50% Rip uptime.
Typically you opt to let Rip tick well beyond its pandemic (especially if its snapshotted), which means depending your RNG, your shadow rip can spawn at 1s - netting, pretty much, 0 damage because your Rip ticks always hit on the 2 second mark. Thus, in most current raiding logs (as Ferals opt for JW or EG), their shadow rips are only parsing 2-3% of their gameplay as 50% of the time these rips are spawning at 10s or less. If you take Sabertooth, on the other hand, the Rip will more or less be refreshed at around the 50% mark (maybe a bit lower if you take SR), net result being more Rips above 12s, more shadow rips above 12s. The effect is so dramatic that the 2-3% of your total DPS rises to NEARLY 10% OF YOUR TOTAL DPS.

The other benefits to this is of course you'll use more FBs, which also means all your FBs will be boosted by +30% since you won't ever use any for Rip - as Trump would say, huge.
So while the talent is passive and thus should (in theory) be tuned less than the other two, not to mention it has no effect post 25% - it just amplifies the shadow rip damage substantially.
That said, this is patchwerk with a conditional rotation, it doesn't take into account how well you manage your energy and/or how much you pool between abilities - as it stands, the best you can achieve with the simulator is a "IF X energy, press Y" situation, but not really a "IF X energy but Y is on CD, wait to get X+20 energy to use Z instead"; the wait clause is not implemented. So inherently, it is most likely going to tip towards EG with more careful manipulation - which I am really not caring to do at the moment, cause waiting tuning (kappa).

The biggest problem I see with EG is that you are not CP locked - it'll rain CP in legion. The +5 CP and +5 CP over 5s, really not going to get you across the barrier that you are resource locked. The level of micromanagement required to execute that brilliantly every single time might get you an extra finisher or two, but ultimately what you give up to pool the energy required to get a perfect EG off each time might not work that well - esp if you are taking SR and opting not to use FB as often to maintain Rip.

And Jagged Wounds is an AoE talent; there is no reason you want to execute a more frantic bleed-centric playstyle in ST when your entire Legion premise revolves around how many Shreds can I fit in a given rotation/
xfr wrote: At this point committing to a feral artifact looks like a very risky gamble, as it rules out mythic+ in addition to the questionable raid viability and high benching risk due to the many stronger melee alternatives.
It is, I just wanted to state that blood scent might not scale well cause of it. All of the parses were done on base 750 ilvl, no artifact included.

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Re: Datamined Legion Talents

Post by Dysheki » Wed Jun 29, 2016 1:04 am

Is Ask Mr Robot actually a good reference? No offense, but I've never heard anyone say "hey AMR is a great resource you should check it out". The only reason I ask is because I've seen someone post SSs where 50% of their damage was shred and I feel they are more of a reputable source than AMR, but I don't see that anywhere. Honestly not sure what his talents were or if it was competitive, but I would assume he knows what he's doing: https://twitter.com/Purrowl_OCE/status/ ... 3680678913

Either way, I'm more angry about the changes to the max camera distance than anything they could do to feral. And that says a lot (well, I guess it could mean I'm numb to them not knowing how to make feral useful in raids. oh, and the haste thing).

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