Is it in Blizzard's best interest to lower feral skill cap?

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Re: Is it in Blizzard's best interest to lower feral skill c

Post by Kraineth » Mon May 02, 2016 4:54 pm

It definitely seems like the affinities are much more effective for Guardian/Resto than for Balance/Feral. Which seems obvious since they don't always need to be performing their given role.

@Tinderhoof Did they do something to Sunfire I'm unaware of? Last time I used balance affinity was as guardian in that Tree/Eyeball boss in Emerald Nightmare and sunfire seemed pretty strong then.

On the topic of skillcap. I think in the case of Legion is has been handled relatively well for us. Balancing aside a lot of the talent choices offer a more complex playstyle. We have a "challenging" option for all of our DPS talent tiers. But it certainly remains to be seen whether they will stick to the "more challening = more rewarding" style that they used to talk about.

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Re: Is it in Blizzard's best interest to lower feral skill c

Post by Kojiyama » Mon May 02, 2016 5:26 pm

They didn't specifically nerf Sunfire for Ferals, but they did globally nerf it a couple builds ago for all specs, including Balance.
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Re: Is it in Blizzard's best interest to lower feral skill c

Post by Polihayse » Fri May 06, 2016 1:26 am

Has anyone found any spec that looks like it has interesting gameplay and some complexity? I'm losing hope.

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Re: Is it in Blizzard's best interest to lower feral skill c

Post by Eqúinox » Fri May 06, 2016 10:47 pm

Polihayse wrote:Has anyone found any spec that looks like it has interesting gameplay and some complexity? I'm losing hope.
After reading the last few feral druid feedback threads, I've lost hope. Unless they pull their heads out of their %##^# and start fixing the issues which have been reported and re-reported over the passed few feedback threads, I'm considering reactivating my rogue and going outlaw.

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Re: Is it in Blizzard's best interest to lower feral skill c

Post by Sashimi » Sat May 07, 2016 6:34 am

Polihayse wrote:Has anyone found any spec that looks like it has interesting gameplay and some complexity? I'm losing hope.
Been playing my druid since Beta Vanilla and i am sad that possibly i wont main it in the next Xpac (firs time ever T_T) i dont know why we are so neglected ./sigh. Anywho Unholy DK, DH, Balance have very interesting gameplay tons of talents and mechanics that complex the rotaion/priority and speeds up the pace of abilities. DH looked alot better and not simple the second pass around more choices and more complex builds that speed up gameplay to be more complex/rewarding this is looking to be my fall back if we are not viable for mythics (./sadpanda). Worst comes to Worst maybe expanding the community to more classes/specs would be awesome because i love the community here been reading posts on TFD for a long time just a idea/thought. /prays for hope for feral

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Re: Is it in Blizzard's best interest to lower feral skill c

Post by Polihayse » Sat May 07, 2016 1:48 pm

I don't want to play rogue even if ass or sub turn out to be good because that will mean that my guild will have me play outlaw for aoe. If you haven't played it, it is an rng shitfest. The worst i've ever seen. If you take an outlaw rogue for aoe, their rotation before these priority adds will be to Roll the Bones for 30 seconds trying to get the best buffs. You could be the best outlaw rogue in the world and still lose in dps to a rogue that bought his gear, clicks, and uses a noxxic guide.

Demon hunter has no depth either. Push button when it comes off cd. Maybe it can be mechanically intensive with jumping and dashing.

WW monk seemed cool at first, but I'm not too sure now. I thought the mastery would make it very interesting. It is not as bad as other specs.

I've heard that enhancement shamans are pretty fun right now, but I havent tried it.

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Re: Is it in Blizzard's best interest to lower feral skill c

Post by Eqúinox » Sun May 08, 2016 1:28 am

Polihayse wrote:I don't want to play rogue even if ass or sub turn out to be good because that will mean that my guild will have me play outlaw for aoe. If you haven't played it, it is an rng shitfest. The worst i've ever seen. If you take an outlaw rogue for aoe, their rotation before these priority adds will be to Roll the Bones for 30 seconds trying to get the best buffs. You could be the best outlaw rogue in the world and still lose in dps to a rogue that bought his gear, clicks, and uses a noxxic guide.

Demon hunter has no depth either. Push button when it comes off cd. Maybe it can be mechanically intensive with jumping and dashing.

WW monk seemed cool at first, but I'm not too sure now. I thought the mastery would make it very interesting. It is not as bad as other specs.

I've heard that enhancement shamans are pretty fun right now, but I havent tried it.
If that's the case with outlaw, I may just find another MMO. Strange thing to say when playing as feral since 2005, but once the spec I love ceases to be complex and fun (to a point) it's best to look elsewhere. I had hopes for outlaw because my other toon during vanilla was a combat swords rogue.

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Re: Is it in Blizzard's best interest to lower feral skill c

Post by Polihayse » Sun May 08, 2016 6:24 am

Someone said final fantasy has complex specs. The downside is that the raid encounters are lame though. That's what I heard anyway.

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Re: Is it in Blizzard's best interest to lower feral skill c

Post by Treeba » Sun May 08, 2016 12:48 pm

Polihayse wrote:Someone said final fantasy has complex specs. The downside is that the raid encounters are lame though. That's what I heard anyway.

I wouldn't say they are lame, just have fewer mechanics. The savage raids (their mythic) can still be pretty hard and often take a number of weeks for a world first guild to full clear. They have some fun and interesting bosses, but they also have a lot of bosses that are basically Butcher or Patchwork with 1-2 extra mechanics.

Fair warning... the game starts slow. Super slow. It's painful for the first 30-40 levels. It picks up a lot after though. Problem is unlike WoW they don't allow you to skip old content (story, you don't need to do the old raids). It will take you a week or two of playing to get through all the 2.0 content to start on the 3.0 stuff. The 2.5 gcd can be pretty painful starting out as well but, spec depending, you'll end up with lots of rotational cds and abilities that you weave in between your gcds so you tend to not notice the wait. That has been my experience with Dragoon anyways. Oh, and they still have a lot of positional requirements for abilities. Flank and back.

If you're primarily concerned with hard raiding you'll probably still be happier in WoW. If you just want something rotationally complex then you might like FF if you can handle some doing all the story content.

Edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIVZJyt4LMI
That's an advanced guide for 3.0 dragoon. It's slightly out of date, and you won't understand most of what they are talking about since you haven't played, but you can get a general idea of the level of complexity and if it's appealing to you. The 4th combo he talks about can be two different abilities that randomly proc after the third ability in the combo chain. They both have different positional requirements (side vs. back) and extend one of your buffs for 15 seconds that allows the use of a 4th combo ability and Geriskogul (which takes 10 seconds off the buff). Letting that buff (Blood of the Dragon) fall off too early is worse than letting a feral's SR fall off.

I haven't played monk, but I hear it's more complex.

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Re: Is it in Blizzard's best interest to lower feral skill c

Post by Polihayse » Sun May 08, 2016 10:24 pm

Idk. I might consider it. I invested so much time into wow. Not sure how hard it would be to pick up another MMO when I've only played wow. Plus I have like 6 million gold I need to do something with lol.

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Re: Is it in Blizzard's best interest to lower feral skill c

Post by Treeba » Sun May 08, 2016 11:30 pm

I'm not trying to sell it to you... just trying to give a full picture. There is a 2 week free trial, but it only goes to level 20 and that really only takes 2-3 days. You can learn every class and profession on a single character, so you can do a lot with those 20 levels. It's not for everyone, but there are a lot of things in it I wish Blizzard would steal. It's much less raid focused though. I assume most of you are serious face full mythic clearing raiders.

Honestly you'll probably be happier in the long run rerolling in WoW and staying here. You're established, you've got money, a guild, etc. It's hard to start fresh and there will definitely be little things you'll miss. Like you can't auto dismount in FF. It's small cause it takes literally 1 button press or mouse click to dismount and attack, but god damn it pisses me off sometimes.

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Re: Is it in Blizzard's best interest to lower feral skill c

Post by Whitepaw » Tue May 10, 2016 8:23 am

@leafkiller:

I agree completely - the removal of the hybridity from the Druid class has hurt Feral immensely. But it was done for a reason: It made the different Druid specs competitive, without making us overpowered.

But in doing this, Blizzard supported the very single-minded perspective of most players: That dps roles should reach as high an output in dps as possible. The need for CC was removed (and replaced by AoE rotations), survivability is now solely the responsibility of the healers and tanks and the need for off-tanks has been removed.

In essence, we now only think inside the dps box as Ferals. No one looks at our healing per second, even though we are fairly capable in that regard. And our numerous CC abilities are mostly used in PvP.

Blizzard needs to change the meta-game. They need to raise the skillcap of most PvE content, so we can use more of our toolbox than just the dps abilities.

Will this happen? Probably not. Blizzard tried to do it in Cataclysm, but suffered from the player outrage. After having one of the most casual expansions in WoW generate a lot of subscribers, the raised difficulty in PvE content in Cataclysm was seen as way too harsh.

This matters a lot to hybrid classes like Druids, because it locks us into performing in very binary situations. As Ferals, we are now only measured in our capacity to generate as much damage as possible. And so, most of us end up discussing dps abilities, from a competitive point of view - instead of the whole gameplay experience, from a cooperative point of view.

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Re: Is it in Blizzard's best interest to lower feral skill c

Post by Polihayse » Wed May 11, 2016 1:18 am

Can you make modifier macros in ff? That's really all I'll ever need to play a game of that style.

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Re: Is it in Blizzard's best interest to lower feral skill c

Post by Treeba » Wed May 11, 2016 10:43 am

Polihayse wrote:Can you make modifier macros in ff? That's really all I'll ever need to play a game of that style.
I actually don't know. You couldn't before 3.0 and I never really looked into it after 3.0 to see if they updated the macro system. It's not a great system overall and has some issues with delays and such, so I've never bothered using it.

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Re: Is it in Blizzard's best interest to lower feral skill c

Post by teddabear » Wed May 11, 2016 9:45 pm

Polihayse wrote:Has anyone found any spec that looks like it has interesting gameplay and some complexity? I'm losing hope.
My opinion is this expansion will be about the gear. If I play I will make a list of specs with tolerable gameplay and then choose based on which one have the most fun and/or powerful Legendarys and Artifact.

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Re: Is it in Blizzard's best interest to lower feral skill c

Post by Polihayse » Thu May 12, 2016 4:05 pm

We were the ones playing the game wrong all along. Waiting for there to be some kind of pay to win aspect to the game.

I've actually been playing LoL a lot recently to get my fix. I'm trying to get better at it. Add me if you want. Summoner name is Ivan Ooze.

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Re: Is it in Blizzard's best interest to lower feral skill c

Post by smugler » Fri May 13, 2016 6:41 am

I agree wholeheartedly with the OP, the Skill GAP between the average player and the more playful player as a feral is defiantly closer, there's absolutely no GAP in skill between a very good player and a not-so good player and can be witnessed in the meters and I have a clear example of this in my guild that I'd like to share with you just to prove a point.

We are two druids in the guild that plays feral sometimes, one is me, and the other is a female girl that we have had in the guild for a very long time now, back in the days we have had her to switch to resto because she wasn't doing very good as a feral dps, I'm speaking of Cata and MoP - her and I have the same ilvl from the MoP days, I remember when we were clearing SoO, I was usually top two DPS, doing numbers around 480 - 500k DPS and while she has the exact same ilvl and trinkets, she was at the bottom of the meters "LITERALLY" doing 200k or 230k DPS, thats how big of a difference there has been in the past between the not-so good feral DPS or even average player, and between the good DPSers, you USED to see the GOOD PLAYERS, you can see them and know that "OH this guy plays good"

But now? me and this same girl are competing in the damage, we do exactly the same and depending on luck either her above me or I'll be above her, WHY? Because the feral game-play now is just so simple, that you can never go wrong.

This above example I'm telling you, it's truth, the girl didn't just become a good player overnight, its just that the game play of a feral right now is simple and you can't fuck that up in a million years, why did blizzard made this? I'm not sure, it just removed the fun out of the game for me, I'm not sad because she became competitive, but I don't like that there's no GAP between the good players and the bad players, thus I stopped raiding with my feral, I just farm mounts now, if blizzard decides to make the game as it used to, then ill play again, but I doubt they will listen to us here or even read what I said in here.

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Re: Is it in Blizzard's best interest to lower feral skill c

Post by AsgardFM » Fri May 13, 2016 12:21 pm

An interesting example to give, smugler, considering that MoP > now is by no means 'overnight''. Depending on on which part of MoP you're discussing it could easily be as long as 3.5 years ago. That's plenty of time for someone to learn a new spec and master it, even with the reworks that happen between expansions. The skill ceiling may have been lowered (across the board rather than just Feral imo) but that doesn't mean you're competing with the same person you were 3 years ago. If I was to look at my own raiding skill in that time frame I'd expect it to change, purely based on the amount of time I have spare for WoW.

For those making statements that you "can't go wrong as feral", you need to take a step back and think how much is that perception coloured by the fact that you have been playing the spec for so long. Pausing with HT for maximum Blood Talons usage doesn't even enter my mind when DPSing now, it's just something that I've learnt. Just as other specs memorize exactly the best way to spend Demonic Fury or Chi, you stop realising what your own spec requires through repetition. That's not to say there isn't a difference between the complexity of some specs (throwbacks to SteadyShot Hunter macros or 2-button Arcane Mages jump to mind) but people here are looking at feral as though it's the only spec to have changed like this.

That's not to say Blizzard isn't changing spec rotations to be more open to new players because they do want to keep people coming into the game. The way they try and offset this is by making the raid encounters more complex. Compare the fights between Firelands and Blackrock Foundry and you can see a huge difference in what players need to do to win. The alternative is to keep making classes harder without changing the encounter mechanics which leads to new players being scared off by the large amount of class knowledge required to even start (think of a new player looking at Crusader Kings for the first time, pure information overload). That only leads to subscription attrition and players finding it harder and harder to recruit enough people to continue raiding (as evidenced by WildStar's approach to PvE).
Given those two choices, why would Blizzard (or any developer) ever take the route that speeds up the death of a game?

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Re: Is it in Blizzard's best interest to lower feral skill c

Post by ShmooDude » Fri May 13, 2016 12:38 pm

smugler wrote:I agree wholeheartedly with the OP, the Skill GAP between the average player and the more playful player as a feral is defiantly closer, there's absolutely no GAP in skill between a very good player and a not-so good player and can be witnessed in the meters and I have a clear example of this in my guild that I'd like to share with you just to prove a point.

We are two druids in the guild that plays feral sometimes, one is me, and the other is a female girl that we have had in the guild for a very long time now, back in the days we have had her to switch to resto because she wasn't doing very good as a feral dps, I'm speaking of Cata and MoP - her and I have the same ilvl from the MoP days, I remember when we were clearing SoO, I was usually top two DPS, doing numbers around 480 - 500k DPS and while she has the exact same ilvl and trinkets, she was at the bottom of the meters "LITERALLY" doing 200k or 230k DPS, thats how big of a difference there has been in the past between the not-so good feral DPS or even average player, and between the good DPSers, you USED to see the GOOD PLAYERS, you can see them and know that "OH this guy plays good"
That's because MoP was ridiculously unbalanced for good vs bad due to snapshotting. If she wasn't utilizing snapshotting addons (and it required addons) I could absolutely see you blowing her away no problem. That is quite frankly not a good system. The difference between a good and average player should not be 100%. That's ridiculous and makes the game impossible to balance (which is why ferals were borderline OP in siege, they balanced ferals around those NOT doing snapshotting and buffed Rip to make those players competitive).
smugler wrote:But now? me and this same girl are competing in the damage, we do exactly the same and depending on luck either her above me or I'll be above her, WHY? Because the feral game-play now is just so simple, that you can never go wrong.

This above example I'm telling you, it's truth, the girl didn't just become a good player overnight, its just that the game play of a feral right now is simple and you can't fuck that up in a million years, why did blizzard made this? I'm not sure, it just removed the fun out of the game for me, I'm not sad because she became competitive, but I don't like that there's no GAP between the good players and the bad players, thus I stopped raiding with my feral, I just farm mounts now, if blizzard decides to make the game as it used to, then ill play again, but I doubt they will listen to us here or even read what I said in here.
Not even remotely true. Examples below.

Here's a parse of a Guardian Druid trying Feral: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/KJ ... slate=true

Gets 2 back to back soul cap procs on pull plus 2 more throughout the fight but because he's not good at feral (bleed uptimes), his DPS blows.

Resto Druid trying Feral: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/GX ... w=rankings

Lets a Soul Cap completely miss, but even if I give him that damage back (about a million), poor Blood Talons usage still leads to terrible DPS for the gear.

Consistently bad Feral: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/B1 ... e&source=7

Gets 2 back to back soul cap procs on pull plus another in the fight. Bad bleed uptimes leads to bad DPS for the gear. Due to the good soul cap RNG this is his best parse at 9th percentile for his gear level.

I think sometimes people completely underestimate how much difference there is between a great or above-average player and a bad player. I would bet that you're a good player and that the girl is simply above average. RNG can easily cause an above average player to sometimes beat a good player. A good player will never get beat by a bad player.

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Re: Is it in Blizzard's best interest to lower feral skill c

Post by Polihayse » Fri May 13, 2016 2:43 pm

The game should give you the proper tools to play optimally. It's fucking ridiculous that the default UI has seen no changes relevant to dps since its release 12 years ago. I've pointed out how terrible the degault Ui is for gameplay before.

I also think it is ridiculous to argue against the use of addons to dps optimally seeing as Blizzard does not want to take the steps necessary to fix this issue outside of removing complexity and depth from the game and ruining the quality of gameplay. The solution should have been to adjust the default UI to somehow give the information to players, not remove it from the game. Addons are available to everyone. If a person wants to do the work to step up their game, then they will eventually learn about addons. It's another step to getting better.

Arguing against the use of addons is like arguing against the use of macros. Macros are available to everyone, but if you don't go out to an external source to learn about them, then you can't benefit from them. Should we remove macros from the game because a good number of people don't want to put the time in to understand them?

You argue against the use of addons for effective gameplay, but what about addons like DBM? Increased difficulty in fight mechanics means we have to depend on those addons more than ever.

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Re: Is it in Blizzard's best interest to lower feral skill c

Post by AsgardFM » Fri May 13, 2016 5:19 pm

I don't think Shmoo was arguing against addons. While I'm hesitant to put words in his mouth, I read that as a statement that Feral DPS differences during the Rune era were amplified too much by addons than player skill. Especially when you consider that a single item created the disparity instead of item level as a whole. Hell, if you'd have taken the Feral who had ranked the highest on, say, Immersius and then disabled their snapshotting addon they would have fallen much much further than they would against Iron Reaver today.
I think it's a fair assumption that (certain "essential") addons will increase throughput but there should be a limit as to how much of a gain you can make.

And then there's the issue of addon functionality. Almost every guild demands a raid assist, DBM or Bigwigs. If Blizzard introduced their own it would take a good while before enough people considered it a good alternative. I still know healers who refuse to use the Blizzard Raid Frames as they spent so long using Grid and Healbot. For myself, I dislike those addons that do your rotation for you by popping up with the button to press. At that point spec complexity ceases to matter, anyone can do well provided they don't screw up encounter tactics and can remember where they've bound their abilities. Might I have higher DPS if I used one? Yes. Would I still enjoy playing? Hell no. By the argument that addons are available to everyone, I should be removed from a raid for enjoying the mental exercise of decision-making in a complex spec.
And if I'm not mistaken, complex decision-making is exactly what people wanted to argue for by starting this thread.

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Re: Is it in Blizzard's best interest to lower feral skill c

Post by ShmooDude » Fri May 13, 2016 6:25 pm

As AsgardFM said, it's not about that you can use addons to increase your DPS. Its that the difference between someone using a snapshot addon vs not was monumental. The rotation needs to be "doable" with the base UI (though doing so is painfully difficult; looks to be improving a bit in Legion). You can't get snapshot information from the base UI. While you still technically can't in WoD, the snapshotting is now simple enough to keep track of on your own (SR, TF and Inc) and its fairly intuitive to know when to overwrite Rake.

P.S. I LOVE addons, I'm pretty well an addon addict, lol. I spent probably a hundred hours tweaking the Ovale script last expansion adding predictive snapshot functionality (which in turn prompted the maintainer of Ovale to redo some of the code to reduce the CPU usage, my code was a huge resource hog).

As far as complexity goes. I've been playing a MM hunter recently. On its face it looks like one of the easiest rotations there is. And for pure single target fights it pretty much is. However, once you add additional enemies to the mix, the complexity goes through the roof. You have a 35% execute that you should keep on cooldown as much as possible. Then after that you want to be attacking something above 80% health. You also want to ensure that your Chimaera shot is hitting 2 targets as it doubles the damage and increases the chance for your 2 piece to proc (so much so that you delay the shot if you can get a 2 target hit upto Chimaera Shot's cooldown). The difference between a player simply targeting one thing at a time and one shifting their targets constantly to maximize use of kill shot and aimed shot is actually pretty noticeable on a lot of fights. Then you add Barrage into the mix anytime there's more than 1 enemy up which requires focus pooling because it's expensive at 60 focus so you need to make sure you have that focus at the right time.

I guess my point of that example is that complexity doesn't have to be rotationally. Having a "simple" rotation doesn't have to negate the advantages of skilled play in today's raid environment (which has more complex encounters than in the past).

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Re: Is it in Blizzard's best interest to lower feral skill c

Post by Polihayse » Fri May 13, 2016 10:12 pm

I disagree that the difference would be monumental. With enough practice, you should be able to get a sense of how powerful a bleed was when you applied it. Seems like the argument is that any benefit from gaming the snapshot mechanic goes out the window completely.

Asgard, there is a difference between complexity that emerges from features of the spec and complexity that stems from having terrible placement of information. Health and energy on the top left, relevant buffs scattered among a sea of irrelevant buffs on the right, a bleed display with no timers despite the fact that pandemic is an important feature in the game, and all of this displayed as far away as possible from the most important area that you should be watching, your feet. One is fun and interesting to experiment with. The other is just annoying and inconvenient. There was nothing stopping them from building into the game something that could help with snapshotting whether it be a different looking icon or a ratio that appears on the debuff. Both of these things would have been an effective solution. Instead they chose to just take it out of the game.

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Re: Is it in Blizzard's best interest to lower feral skill c

Post by ShmooDude » Sat May 14, 2016 12:16 am

Polihayse wrote:I disagree that the difference would be monumental.
Would be? Aren't we talking SoO stuff? Or do you mean what they could have done, in which case see after next quote.

Let's take a look at percentiles before the ring went completely out of control (throwing any semblance of reasonable rankings out the window) and during the end of 25 man SoO:
Mythic Fel Lord Zakuun on Nov 16th, 2015
95th 105k (+19%)
75th 95k (+8%)
50th 88k
25th 79k (-10%)
10th 70k (-20%)

Heroic 25-man Iron Juggernaut on Sep 20th, 2014
95th 557k (+60%)
75th 434k (+33%)
50th 348k
25th 272k (-22%)
10th 191k (-45%)

All the other classes (and I checked them all) were +37-51% from 50th to 95th percentile and +18-21% from 50th to 75th on Iron Juggernaut (and the next highest was another snapshot spec, Affliction). The difference in DPS for ferals was significantly larger than that of any other spec. Now, you can argue that the percentiles we're looking at now are too close (I don't agree, but that's just my opinion) but snapshotting was really just too strong in SoO as far as ferals were concerned.
Polihayse wrote:With enough practice, you should be able to get a sense of how powerful a bleed was when you applied it. Seems like the argument is that any benefit from gaming the snapshot mechanic goes out the window completely.
Not against snapshotting as a mechanic. It just needed to be refined so it's easier to understand and utilize. Take for example the agi heirloom trinket. It gives a 5 second 10% damage buff. Increase that percentage and make it snapshot, and that's a reasonable snapshot implementation. I think it'd be nice to have a snapshotting RNG proc of some sort, which is basically the big difference between then and now. What we have now is all under our control and thus predictable, which I think is your main objection? Personally I think this'd make a great talent but our mechanics seem pretty set in stone for Legion unfortunately.

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Re: Is it in Blizzard's best interest to lower feral skill c

Post by Polihayse » Sat May 14, 2016 3:00 am

The difference in DPS for ferals was significantly larger than that of any other spec. Now, you can argue that the percentiles we're looking at now are too close (I don't agree, but that's just my opinion) but snapshotting was really just too strong in SoO as far as ferals were concerned.
I have no idea how you can come to any conclusions at all about the SoO skill gap for feral when it relied so heavily on having roro AND getting lucky with it. I don't think that what we had in MoP was optimal, but it sure is waaaaaaaaaay better than what we have right and and what we can expect in legion. This is not because it did a large amount of damage, but because of the interesting gameplay it provided. It was a thinking spec and your decisions mattered. I'm sure a lot of feral druids who played in MoP suffered through WoD feral because they hoped that it might one day go back to its roots. From what we can see though, it is going in the opposite direction and maybe you can keep up bleeds perfectly, but that isn't going to matter as much as your ilvl. We can expect a lot of feral druids that play at a high level to quit the spec next expansion.

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