Opener in legion

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Growly
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Opener in legion

Post by Growly » Mon Aug 15, 2016 1:23 pm

Hi long time lurker first time posting.
I've been trying to find information on Ferals opener in legion more specifically when to use the artifact ability in my opener
I apologize if its already been posted and missed it if anyone could let me know thanks :D

Twitchys
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Re: Opener in legion

Post by Twitchys » Mon Aug 15, 2016 1:31 pm

I might get corrected on this, but the goal should be to use with with BT/SR/TF up, so it'll probably get used after your first finisher(SR).

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Bluewulf
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Re: Opener in legion

Post by Bluewulf » Mon Aug 15, 2016 4:51 pm

It was pretty much,
1. HT pre pull
2. Rake
3. Savage Roar
4. Ashamane's Frenzy
5. Shred to 5 CP
6. Rip

After that you'll wanna get you Savage Roar up again and continue as you would.
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Istaro
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Re: Opener in legion

Post by Istaro » Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:26 pm

Bluewulf wrote:It was pretty much,
1. HT pre pull
2. Rake
3. Savage Roar
4. Ashamane's Frenzy
5. Shred to 5 CP
6. Rip

After that you'll wanna get you Savage Roar up again and continue as you would.
Maybe with TF at 3.5 (would the extra 15% damage for Ashamane's Frenzy outweigh the wasted energy, I wonder?) and HT at 5.5?

ShmooDude
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Re: Opener in legion

Post by ShmooDude » Mon Aug 15, 2016 9:58 pm

Istaro wrote:
Bluewulf wrote:It was pretty much,
1. HT pre pull
2. Rake
3. Savage Roar
4. Ashamane's Frenzy
5. Shred to 5 CP
6. Rip

After that you'll wanna get you Savage Roar up again and continue as you would.
Maybe with TF at 3.5 (would the extra 15% damage for Ashamane's Frenzy outweigh the wasted energy, I wonder?) and HT at 5.5?
HT at 5.5 isn't likely as you only have a 20-40% chance for PS depending on if your rake crit or not (unless you hard cast).

This might actually work better, would have to simcraft it to know for sure.

HT
Rake
Shred to 5
SR
Shred to 2
HT
Ashamane's Frenzy
Rip

EDIT: Took out the misinformation about the suggested rotation.
Last edited by ShmooDude on Tue Aug 16, 2016 1:14 am, edited 2 times in total.

Istaro
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Re: Opener in legion

Post by Istaro » Tue Aug 16, 2016 12:45 am

Bluewulf wrote:It was pretty much,
1. HT pre pull
2. Rake
3. Savage Roar
4. Ashamane's Frenzy
5. Shred to 5 CP
6. Rip
ShmooDude wrote:You're also missing out on BT with your Ashamane's Frenzy doing it that way (which is way bigger than the Savage Roar).
The first BT charge would go to Rake and the second to Ashamane's Frenzy, yeah?

ShmooDude
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Re: Opener in legion

Post by ShmooDude » Tue Aug 16, 2016 1:13 am

Oh yea, saw SR in between and just wasn't thinking. I still feel though going to 5 CPs for SR might be better, but have no evidence one way or another.

EDIT: According to simcraft, using SR right after Rake is the correct opener.

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Bluewulf
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Re: Opener in legion

Post by Bluewulf » Tue Aug 16, 2016 1:06 pm

@Istaro Yeah just by guessing I would assume TF at 3.5 would be correct.

@SchmooDude Do we know if the hard casting HT at 5.5 simmed higher?


I know there is still lots of simming to be done so as most of you know whatever I regurgitate is subject to change ;)
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ShmooDude
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Re: Opener in legion

Post by ShmooDude » Tue Aug 16, 2016 6:10 pm

For sabertooth, definitely hard cast as you guarantee a max multiplier rip (SR+BT+TF) and save yourself from having to set everything up 30 seconds from now. For everything else no.

Aze2139
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Re: Opener in legion

Post by Aze2139 » Thu Aug 18, 2016 1:55 am

what about moonfire?

do u cast it right after the first rake? (if u skilled LI)

Sharpend
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Re: Opener in legion

Post by Sharpend » Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:05 am

Actually doing :

HT prepull
Rake
Frenzy
(1 Shred if rake doesnt crit)
SR
Zerk
Shred to 5cp
TF Rip

I observed that we are loosing too much dmgs by waiting SR to use frenzy. We need to use the frenzy only buffed by bloodtalons at the opener just like a combo builder to get SR quite quickly. I can assure you it's a big dps gain even if it looks like not

Guiltyas
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Re: Opener in legion

Post by Guiltyas » Thu Aug 18, 2016 8:47 am

Sharpend wrote:Actually doing :

HT prepull
Rake
Frenzy
(1 Shred if rake doesnt crit)
SR
Zerk
Shred to 5cp
TF Rip

I observed that we are loosing too much dmgs by waiting SR to use frenzy. We need to use the frenzy only buffed by bloodtalons at the opener just like a combo builder to get SR quite quickly. I can assure you it's a big dps gain even if it looks like not
So you're saying that one global to cast Savage roar is more of a dps loss than losing 70% damage on your hardest hitting spell? I think thats highly unlikely.

The opener hasn't been simmed yet. But its almost 100% certain that it will involve SRing immediately after rake.

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Konungr
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Re: Opener in legion

Post by Konungr » Thu Aug 18, 2016 10:44 am

Sharpend wrote:Actually doing :

HT prepull
Rake
Frenzy
(1 Shred if rake doesnt crit)
SR
Zerk
Shred to 5cp
TF Rip

I observed that we are loosing too much dmgs by waiting SR to use frenzy. We need to use the frenzy only buffed by bloodtalons at the opener just like a combo builder to get SR quite quickly. I can assure you it's a big dps gain even if it looks like not


YEAH, about that... No.

Sharpend
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Re: Opener in legion

Post by Sharpend » Thu Aug 18, 2016 2:11 pm

So you're saying that one global to cast Savage roar is more of a dps loss than losing 70% damage on your hardest hitting spell?
I think yes, i'm sure yes, just try different opener in dummy, this one is the better i've found. If you open like HT > Rake > Shred to 5 > SR, you will be out of energy after second shred, and not 100% certain to get 5cp, you will wait 10s to use your 40% buffed frenzy, while dealing very bad dmgs during these 10s. Ofc using frenzy at the opener is a real dps inc, just try this

Istaro
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Re: Opener in legion

Post by Istaro » Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:27 pm

Sharpend wrote:If you open like HT > Rake > Shred to 5 > SR, you will be out of energy after second shred, and not 100% certain to get 5cp, you will wait 10s to use your 40% buffed frenzy
Try comparing your idea not to HT > Rake > Shred-to-5 > SR > AF but to HT > Rake > SR > AF as described in Bluewulf's post at the top.

Sharpend
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Re: Opener in legion

Post by Sharpend » Thu Aug 18, 2016 6:54 pm

Istaro wrote:
Sharpend wrote:If you open like HT > Rake > Shred to 5 > SR, you will be out of energy after second shred, and not 100% certain to get 5cp, you will wait 10s to use your 40% buffed frenzy
Try comparing your idea not to HT > Rake > Shred-to-5 > SR > AF but to HT > Rake > SR > AF as described in Bluewulf's post at the top.
Yeah i saw this post, but with this pull we will only get 20-40% chance to trigger PS, and we realy need this HT to buff the first Rip if we are playing ST

Xanzara
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Re: Opener in legion

Post by Xanzara » Thu Aug 18, 2016 10:14 pm

Yes, if we are running Sabretooth (Sbt), you want to hardcast HT before the rip if you don't get the proc. Most of the time we won't run Sbt however, so it's kinda niche.

Zane1234
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Re: Opener in legion

Post by Zane1234 » Wed Aug 24, 2016 12:31 pm

Bluewulf wrote:It was pretty much,
1. HT pre pull
2. Rake
3. Savage Roar
4. Ashamane's Frenzy
5. Shred to 5 CP
6. Rip

After that you'll wanna get you Savage Roar up again and continue as you would.
Haven't had a chance to sim anything but our opener seems a bit more complex than those 6 steps. Will it be:
7. Moonfire
8. Shred (reapply rake if needed) to 5 cps
9. SR
10. Berserk + TF

Or will we have to berserk+TF earlier due to energy starving? As we'll want them up at some point during initial trinkets and prepot.

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Re: Opener in legion

Post by Sharpend » Wed Aug 24, 2016 5:02 pm

Zane1234 wrote:
Bluewulf wrote:It was pretty much,
1. HT pre pull
2. Rake
3. Savage Roar
4. Ashamane's Frenzy
5. Shred to 5 CP
6. Rip

After that you'll wanna get you Savage Roar up again and continue as you would.
Haven't had a chance to sim anything but our opener seems a bit more complex than those 6 steps. Will it be:
7. Moonfire
8. Shred (reapply rake if needed) to 5 cps
9. SR
10. Berserk + TF

Or will we have to berserk+TF earlier due to energy starving? As we'll want them up at some point during initial trinkets and prepot.

Mh at 6. i think its better to refresh SR instead of playing rip without PS, and im not sure if lunar inspiration is better than blood scent with 1 target. The pull looks like this :

1. HT prepull
2. Rake
3. SR
4. AF
5. Shred to 5 cp
6. ( //HT > Berserk+TF > Rip// if SR triggered PS) otherwise //SR + Berserk + TF//
7. Shred + Rake to 5 cp
8. HT
9. Rip or SR, based on what happened earlier

Delay as possible berserk+TF with OoC procs, but first rip must be improved by TF

Istaro
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Re: Opener in legion

Post by Istaro » Wed Aug 24, 2016 6:29 pm

And with LI, I assume you'd simply replace your first Shred with Moonfire; no reason to wait, since Shred is just filler.

Zane1234
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Re: Opener in legion

Post by Zane1234 » Thu Aug 25, 2016 10:41 am

http://downloads.simulationcraft.org/ag ... ts/15.html

LI is above blood scent (single target at least).

I'd be interested to see if reapplying SR at 5 points if PS hasn't procced is more beneficial actually. Maybe even just using FB if you're unlucky enough to get a 2 point rake but no PS.

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Ravajin
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Re: Opener in legion

Post by Ravajin » Mon Aug 29, 2016 5:54 am

As I'm not going to be able to check myself until 8 hours from now I was wondering if one of you other ferals could inform me (or check) :D

Does Moonfire benefit from Savage Roar when specced into Lunar Aspiration?

It makes sense that Moonfire does not benefit from the Bloodtalons buff as it's not a melee ability, but is it a "Cat form attack"?

In case it doesn't benefit from Savage Roar I was thinking of changing the opening rotation slightly from what Tinderhoof posted in his guide Wowhead guide.

X.1 is in the scenario that Predatory Swiftness procs

Savage Roar + Bloodtalons + Lunar Inspiration:
1 - Cast Healing Touch
2 - Prowl
3 - Rake (1-2 CP - BT+Stealth)
4 - Moonfire (2-4 CP)
5 - Savage Roar
6 - Tiger's Fury (should be missing around 75 energy by now (30+35+40-30 (3 gcd energy regen))
7 - Ashamane's Frenzy (3CP - BT+TF)
8 - Shred once (4-5 CP - TF)
9.1 - Healing Touch
10 - If 4 CP - Shred
11 - If 5 CP - Rip (BT+TF)

The minor chance would give at least another 20% chance to proc Predatory Swiftness due to at least one extra CP.

Zane1234
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Re: Opener in legion

Post by Zane1234 » Mon Aug 29, 2016 6:45 am

Moonfire benefits from SR and TF but not BT

Sharpend
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Re: Opener in legion

Post by Sharpend » Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:38 am

Then

Rake
SR
AF
(MF/TF/SHRED) order depends of energy
HT Rip
...

bacevicius
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Re: Opener in legion

Post by bacevicius » Thu Sep 01, 2016 8:57 pm

HMM not one mention of TF'ing the ashmane and hitting it after SR right b4 zerk if your lucky you can crit and BT the rip on then rake 4 and rip 5 end . dont happen every time tho

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