Video Tutorial: Feral Single Target DPS

Face-rippin fun.

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Kheirah
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Video Tutorial: Feral Single Target DPS

Post by Kheirah » Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:58 pm

Feral DPS is not the easiest topic. Whether you are a beginner or an expert, Legion offers ways of dynamically adapting to new rotations due to legendary items.
The rotation I display in the video does not involve any legendaries. On the one hand, I don't have any =) On the other hand, it's more conducive to learning to display
sort of a stand-alone rotation which does not necessitate some of the convenient effects of orange gear pieces. The purpose of the video is to provide an understanding of
Feral Single Target Damage.

youtu.be/o6Mv_qJGqsY

Use this topic to discuss further options of dealing damage, share your experiences, or otherwise join the conversation on Feral Damage!


Safe alternative to my opener as suggested by Konungr:
Healing Touch > Stealth > Berserk (0:00)
Rake (0:01)
Shred (0:02)
Shred (0:03)
Shred (0:04)
Savage Roar (0:05)
Tiger's Fury > Moonfire (0:06)
Shred (0:07)
Healing Touch (0:08)
Ashamane's Fury (0:09)
Rip (0:10) {Tiger's Fury/Savage Roar/BloodTalons}
Last edited by Kheirah on Sun Oct 30, 2016 5:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

tomfg
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Re: Video Tutorial: Feral Single Target DPS

Post by tomfg » Mon Oct 24, 2016 4:45 am

Kheirah, I would like to say a huge thank you! I have just started playing feral this exp and this was exactly what I was looking for!!
I would absolutely love to sit and pick your brain haha :P
You've been such a tremendous help to me!
I sat and watched a few of your other videos and have been so excited by the possibilities of feral!!

Again, a huge thank you, all the way from Australia!!

Lustyloins, Frostmourne, Oceanic.

tatuli
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Re: Video Tutorial: Feral Single Target DPS

Post by tatuli » Tue Oct 25, 2016 8:36 am

awesome guide thank you, using moonfire was a trick which i use too for BT buffs.

But opening with berserk caused you too get energy caped several times i guess, what do you think about it?

And in a scenario which SR and Rip falling of together in X secs. What is the treshold to use FB or refresh SR?

Kheirah
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Re: Video Tutorial: Feral Single Target DPS

Post by Kheirah » Wed Oct 26, 2016 8:07 pm

tomfg wrote:Kheirah, I would like to say a huge thank you! I have just started playing feral this exp and this was exactly what I was looking for!!
I would absolutely love to sit and pick your brain haha :P
You've been such a tremendous help to me!
I sat and watched a few of your other videos and have been so excited by the possibilities of feral!!

Again, a huge thank you, all the way from Australia!!

Lustyloins, Frostmourne, Oceanic.
I would so love to go to Australia. This is off-topic. But I'm actually thinking about going there. I'd be willing to trade my knowledge of the Feral with your citizenship :D


@tatuli:
The way I figure this is that in the opener, you are obviously capped at max energy and you lose some Tiger's Fury energy ticks, BUT what is the major dmg of our kitty? Bleeds. That's what you have to apply asap. Being capped at max energy doesn't matter as long as this contributes to the rotation. And the rotation is to keep our dots rolling.
As for dungeons, in single target situations you should prioritize having your bleeds up (with SR) over refreshing SR, BUT the exact order may vary due to clearcasting proccs and due to the boss's HP. I usually apply my bleeds and let my SR fall off if it comes to that. But I also refresh SR sometimes and accept the dps loss when no bleeds are active. Nothing's really THE answer.
When you're doing a boss and he's below 25% hp, you can freely FB to refresh a strong Rip. Make sure to have a long enough duration of SR to be able to apply Rake. The rotation basically continues just the way I showed in the video, with the only distinction that you no longer refresh Rip with Rip, but with FB. And in case you didn't know yet, you can use FB with 1 cp to refresh Rip =) The strength of Rip stays the same. It's not affected by how many cps you Ferobite with.

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Konungr
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Re: Video Tutorial: Feral Single Target DPS

Post by Konungr » Thu Oct 27, 2016 2:49 pm

Kheirah wrote:
tomfg wrote:Kheirah, I would like to say a huge thank you! I have just started playing feral this exp and this was exactly what I was looking for!!
I would absolutely love to sit and pick your brain haha :P
You've been such a tremendous help to me!
I sat and watched a few of your other videos and have been so excited by the possibilities of feral!!

Again, a huge thank you, all the way from Australia!!

Lustyloins, Frostmourne, Oceanic.
I would so love to go to Australia. This is off-topic. But I'm actually thinking about going there. I'd be willing to trade my knowledge of the Feral with your citizenship :D


@tatuli:
The way I figure this is that in the opener, you are obviously capped at max energy and you lose some Tiger's Fury energy ticks, BUT what is the major dmg of our kitty? Bleeds. That's what you have to apply asap. Being capped at max energy doesn't matter as long as this contributes to the rotation. And the rotation is to keep our dots rolling.
As for dungeons, in single target situations you should prioritize having your bleeds up (with SR) over refreshing SR, BUT the exact order may vary due to clearcasting proccs and due to the boss's HP. I usually apply my bleeds and let my SR fall off if it comes to that. But I also refresh SR sometimes and accept the dps loss when no bleeds are active. Nothing's really THE answer.
When you're doing a boss and he's below 25% hp, you can freely FB to refresh a strong Rip. Make sure to have a long enough duration of SR to be able to apply Rake. The rotation basically continues just the way I showed in the video, with the only distinction that you no longer refresh Rip with Rip, but with FB. And in case you didn't know yet, you can use FB with 1 cp to refresh Rip =) The strength of Rip stays the same. It's not affected by how many cps you Ferobite with.
Energy Energy is the primary resource for the cat druid. All of our attacks are powered by energy, and increasing our energy generation directly impacts the amount of attacks we can use during a fight. Unlike a warrior’s rage, we start any fight with max energy (100/100) and our energy constantly regenerates, at a rate of 10pts/sec. (0.1pt/sec increase for each 1% of haste.) The cardinal sin of a feral druid is allowing your energy to cap, as this stops your energy regeneration. Conversely, another sin (though not as big) is energy starvation; if you constantly launch attacks on lower-priority abilities as soon as you regenerate enough to do so, you may not have enough for higher-abilities when they’re available. (More on this later.) A good flow for a feral druid is to use high-priority attacks (Rip/Rake/SR) as soon as possible, and save low-priority attacks until energy regenerates to 70-80 or so. If this was all we had to worry about, things would be easy; pick the attack with the highest DPE (damage-per-energy). However, we also have to consider another resource.
STOP BEING BAD! MORE IMPORTANTLY, STOP GIVING BAD ADVICE!!!!!

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Re: Video Tutorial: Feral Single Target DPS

Post by Kheirah » Sat Oct 29, 2016 9:44 am

Konungr wrote: STOP BEING BAD! MORE IMPORTANTLY, STOP GIVING BAD ADVICE!!!!!
At the current state of the game, haste doesn't add as much to your damage as do mastery, crit, and versatility.
So if you don't have any haste (or a low value of haste) on your gear, you're not losing any dps because you do not have an increased energy regeneration. What you have is increased damage through all the mastery, crit, and versatility on your gear. And that means: being capped at 100 energy for 1-2 sec doesn't impact your dps if it allows you to keep up your rotation in the long run.

It always fascinates me how people who can read don't understand what it is they read. At least you found the caps lock key on your keyboard.

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Konungr
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Re: Video Tutorial: Feral Single Target DPS

Post by Konungr » Sat Oct 29, 2016 2:25 pm

Kheirah wrote:
Konungr wrote: STOP BEING BAD! MORE IMPORTANTLY, STOP GIVING BAD ADVICE!!!!!
At the current state of the game, haste doesn't add as much to your damage as do mastery, crit, and versatility.
So if you don't have any haste (or a low value of haste) on your gear, you're not losing any dps because you do not have an increased energy regeneration. What you have is increased damage through all the mastery, crit, and versatility on your gear. And that means: being capped at 100 energy for 1-2 sec doesn't impact your dps if it allows you to keep up your rotation in the long run.

It always fascinates me how people who can read don't understand what it is they read. At least you found the caps lock key on your keyboard.
Actually, I don't have Caps Lock on my keyboard, I used the Shift Key. Even with base level Energy Regen, capping yourself out at any point, even for only a few seconds is one of the worst things for your dps you can do. We are not a GCD-capped spec, as such, managing resources, both Energy and Combo Points, is the most vital part of the Feral rotation. Not letting your Energy hit 100 has been the number one rule of Feral since before Haste ever gave us increased Energy Regen. Not to mention the Artifact traits that augment Tiger's Fury. So given your opener:

Healing Touch > Stealth > Berserk > Rake > Savage Roar > Tiger's Fury > Ashamane's Frenzy > Moonfire > Shred > Rip

So, you start with 150 Energy, Rake costs 17-18 Energy (132), GCD Energy Regen (142), Savage Roar costs 20 Energy (122), GCD Energy Regen (132), Tiger's Fury gives 60 Energy (150, 42 Energy Wasted), Ashamane's Frenzy costs 0 (150), GCD Energy Regen (150, 10 Energy Wasted), Ashamane's Energy tick #1 (150, 15 Energy Wasted), Moonfire costs 15 Energy (135), GCD Energy Regen (145), Ashamane's Energy tick #1 (150, 10 Energy Wasted), Shred costs 20 Energy (130), GCD Energy Regen (140), Ashamane's Energy tick #1 (150, 5 Energy Wasted), Rip costs 15 Energy (135), GCD Energy Regen (145)

TL;DR: You wasted 82 Energy for no reason which could have been 2-6 Attacks.

Please enlighten me as to what using Tiger's Fury that early is giving you that it makes up for the loss of 82 Energy, at minimum, by your opener. The loss if someone is using a Ashamane's Energy relic or gets an Omen proc during the opener would be even worse.

Kheirah
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Re: Video Tutorial: Feral Single Target DPS

Post by Kheirah » Sat Oct 29, 2016 7:15 pm

Konungr wrote: Actually, I don't have Caps Lock on my keyboard, I used the Shift Key. Even with base level Energy Regen, capping yourself out at any point, even for only a few seconds is one of the worst things for your dps you can do. We are not a GCD-capped spec, as such, managing resources, both Energy and Combo Points, is the most vital part of the Feral rotation. Not letting your Energy hit 100 has been the number one rule of Feral since before Haste ever gave us increased Energy Regen. Not to mention the Artifact traits that augment Tiger's Fury. So given your opener:

Healing Touch > Stealth > Berserk > Rake > Savage Roar > Tiger's Fury > Ashamane's Frenzy > Moonfire > Shred > Rip

So, you start with 150 Energy, Rake costs 17-18 Energy (132), GCD Energy Regen (142), Savage Roar costs 20 Energy (122), GCD Energy Regen (132), Tiger's Fury gives 60 Energy (150, 42 Energy Wasted), Ashamane's Frenzy costs 0 (150), GCD Energy Regen (150, 10 Energy Wasted), Ashamane's Energy tick #1 (150, 15 Energy Wasted), Moonfire costs 15 Energy (135), GCD Energy Regen (145), Ashamane's Energy tick #1 (150, 10 Energy Wasted), Shred costs 20 Energy (130), GCD Energy Regen (140), Ashamane's Energy tick #1 (150, 5 Energy Wasted), Rip costs 15 Energy (135), GCD Energy Regen (145)

TL;DR: You wasted 82 Energy for no reason which could have been 2-6 Attacks.

Please enlighten me as to what using Tiger's Fury that early is giving you that it makes up for the loss of 82 Energy, at minimum, by your opener. The loss if someone is using a Ashamane's Energy relic or gets an Omen proc during the opener would be even worse.
You held the shift key pressed all the way down to the last letter?^^ That's persistence! I bet you're going to claim to be right on the subject with a similar degree of determination.


All right, let's clear this up. Until now, I didn't even know you are explicitly referring to my opener. Now we can be specific. First, I want to say that I'm not insisting that my opener is THE only and the best opener and there is no other alternative. I think I said that in my video, too. If there's a better alternative, I'd be interested to know what this alternative looks like.

Now the loss of energy in my opener is no doubt a huge waste of energy. But the question is: Is it also a loss of dps?

Specifically in my uploaded video the main damage sources are Rip (26.4%), Rake (24.1%), Ashamane's Rip (13.4%), and Shred (12.5%). These are the attacks that contribute the most to the total damage done which amounts to 76.4% of the cake. If you tell me that being capped at 100 energy is bad because I'm wasting energy, then that means there is an alternative, perhaps a different sequence of spells, which generates more dps. That's what you're saying, isn't it? capped at 100 energy -> no further energy regeneration -> loss of dps.

Here's the thing: Which spells do you want to use and in which order do you want to use them so that you outweigh the damage done by your Rip, Rake, Shadow Rip, and Shred? Do you see what I'm saying? You could, of course, start your opener without wasting a single ounce of energy, first building up 5 cps, then buffing Savage Roar, then building up another 5 cps in order to Rip. But does that opener outweigh the loss of damage of a quick and early application of the most important damage sources?
I mean, in the long run of your rotation there is nothing that can compare to the ticking of your bleeds and an occasional Shred. In my understanding being energy-capped in the opener is not at all a bad thing because your goal is to jump-start the rotation. And the rotation is the bleeds.

If the balance of our damaging spells were different, say Shred were at #1 with some 20-ish percent, then I'd build the opener and the rotation around that balance and try to squeeze in as many Shreds as possible. But the current state of the game says, bleeds are absolutely superior, apply them asap and keep them up.

Energy cap =/= loss of dps. But try and convince me otherwise.^^

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Konungr
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Re: Video Tutorial: Feral Single Target DPS

Post by Konungr » Sun Oct 30, 2016 12:59 am

Kheirah wrote:
Konungr wrote: Actually, I don't have Caps Lock on my keyboard, I used the Shift Key. Even with base level Energy Regen, capping yourself out at any point, even for only a few seconds is one of the worst things for your dps you can do. We are not a GCD-capped spec, as such, managing resources, both Energy and Combo Points, is the most vital part of the Feral rotation. Not letting your Energy hit 100 has been the number one rule of Feral since before Haste ever gave us increased Energy Regen. Not to mention the Artifact traits that augment Tiger's Fury. So given your opener:

Healing Touch > Stealth > Berserk > Rake > Savage Roar > Tiger's Fury > Ashamane's Frenzy > Moonfire > Shred > Rip

So, you start with 150 Energy, Rake costs 17-18 Energy (132), GCD Energy Regen (142), Savage Roar costs 20 Energy (122), GCD Energy Regen (132), Tiger's Fury gives 60 Energy (150, 42 Energy Wasted), Ashamane's Frenzy costs 0 (150), GCD Energy Regen (150, 10 Energy Wasted), Ashamane's Energy tick #1 (150, 15 Energy Wasted), Moonfire costs 15 Energy (135), GCD Energy Regen (145), Ashamane's Energy tick #1 (150, 10 Energy Wasted), Shred costs 20 Energy (130), GCD Energy Regen (140), Ashamane's Energy tick #1 (150, 5 Energy Wasted), Rip costs 15 Energy (135), GCD Energy Regen (145)

TL;DR: You wasted 82 Energy for no reason which could have been 2-6 Attacks.

Please enlighten me as to what using Tiger's Fury that early is giving you that it makes up for the loss of 82 Energy, at minimum, by your opener. The loss if someone is using a Ashamane's Energy relic or gets an Omen proc during the opener would be even worse.
You held the shift key pressed all the way down to the last letter?^^ That's persistence! I bet you're going to claim to be right on the subject with a similar degree of determination.


All right, let's clear this up. Until now, I didn't even know you are explicitly referring to my opener. Now we can be specific. First, I want to say that I'm not insisting that my opener is THE only and the best opener and there is no other alternative. I think I said that in my video, too. If there's a better alternative, I'd be interested to know what this alternative looks like.

Now the loss of energy in my opener is no doubt a huge waste of energy. But the question is: Is it also a loss of dps?

Specifically in my uploaded video the main damage sources are Rip (26.4%), Rake (24.1%), Ashamane's Rip (13.4%), and Shred (12.5%). These are the attacks that contribute the most to the total damage done which amounts to 76.4% of the cake. If you tell me that being capped at 100 energy is bad because I'm wasting energy, then that means there is an alternative, perhaps a different sequence of spells, which generates more dps. That's what you're saying, isn't it? capped at 100 energy -> no further energy regeneration -> loss of dps.

Here's the thing: Which spells do you want to use and in which order do you want to use them so that you outweigh the damage done by your Rip, Rake, Shadow Rip, and Shred? Do you see what I'm saying? You could, of course, start your opener without wasting a single ounce of energy, first building up 5 cps, then buffing Savage Roar, then building up another 5 cps in order to Rip. But does that opener outweigh the loss of damage of a quick and early application of the most important damage sources?
I mean, in the long run of your rotation there is nothing that can compare to the ticking of your bleeds and an occasional Shred. In my understanding being energy-capped in the opener is not at all a bad thing because your goal is to jump-start the rotation. And the rotation is the bleeds.

If the balance of our damaging spells were different, say Shred were at #1 with some 20-ish percent, then I'd build the opener and the rotation around that balance and try to squeeze in as many Shreds as possible. But the current state of the game says, bleeds are absolutely superior, apply them asap and keep them up.

Energy cap =/= loss of dps. But try and convince me otherwise.^^

Lol, you're definitely new around here. See, there are many kinds of theorycrafters we have here at the Fluid Druid, and we usually agree on most of the aspects of Feral gameplay, but we'll debate it with fang and claw all the way if we have to. We all have our own way of helping others get better as well, and me, well I'm the asshole of the lot. I'm not always right, and there is no shame in being wrong, but I cannot allow someone to put out bad information and call it right. Now, if you had posted a thread asking whether the waste of Tiger's Fury in the beginning of the rotation was superior to getting Rip up a few seconds faster, that would have been different. We could have had a discussion on the matter and looked at the numbers, and figured out which was the ideal way to go. Honestly, when you posted this thread and video, I watched 3 minutes of the video and then shut it off, I wouldn't have bothered to chime in at all on the thread, until you were asked about being capped on energy and you said it didn't matter.

So let's look at your opener versus the standard opener and see just how much your method is going to save you.

Your Opener:
Healing Touch > Stealth > Berserk (0:00)
Rake (0:01)
Savage Roar (0:02)
Tiger's Fury > Ashamane's Fury (0:03)
Moonfire (0:04)
Shred (0:05)
Rip (0:06) {Tiger's Fury/Savage Roar}

Standard Opener:
Healing Touch > Stealth > Berserk (0:00)
Rake (0:01)
Shred (0:02)
Shred (0:03)
Shred (0:04)
Savage Roar (0:05)
Tiger's Fury > Moonfire (0:06)
Shred (0:07)
Healing Touch (0:08)
Ashamane's Fury (0:09)
Rip (0:10) {Tiger's Fury/Savage Roar/BloodTalons}

So, you get up Rip 4 seconds early, and Moonfire 3 seconds early. Rip ticks every 2 seconds, Moonfire ticks every 2 seconds. So let's give your opener the benefit of the doubt and say that you manage to get 2 more ticks of both Rip and Rake by sacrificing the 82 Energy. Let's take a look at some World of Logs numbers, just to see where the numbers breakdown. Just going to go and pick out a Feral at random from the rankings of Emerald Nightmare.

Bluewulf

Rip Avg: 102865.2
Rip Crit Avg: 211266.7
Moon Avg: 34569.9
Moon Crit Avg: 69930.6
Shred Avg: 147259.3
Shred Crit Avg: 309322.7

So, let's say that you have a 50% Crit chance, so you get 1 Crit and 1 non-Crit of each tick extra:
102865.2 + 211266.7 + 34569.9 + 69930.6 = 418632.4

Now let's look at the damage from the 3 Shreds from the standard opener, that are using up some of that 82 wasted energy. This Feral only has 33% Crit, so only 1 Crit.
147259.3 + 147259.3 + 309322.7 = 603841.3

Not looking so good for the earlier Rip... BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE! The Standard Opener also guarantee's a Predatory Swiftness Proc, so Ashamane's Frenzy and Rip both get that extra buff. DON'T CHANGE THAT CHANNEL, WE'RE NOT DONE YET! Those 3 Shreds only used up 60 of the 82 Wasted Energy, so there's still one more Shred that could be added to the standard opener:
603841.3 + 147259.3 = 751100.6

So by using Tiger's Fury that early, you waste 82 Energy and you lose out on a guaranteed BloodTalons for Rip and Ashamane's Frenzy. You gain 2 ticks of both Rip and Moonfire, so as long as you have absolute perfect gameplay and never let them drop and never overwrite any ticks, you still lose roughly 300k Damage from all that wasted Energy, and that's just in the opener. This is where we can see the impact of wasted energy because there's never a chance to get more of it, it's a finite resource, and the foundation of the feral priority system. Once Energy is wasted by capping, there is no way to get it back, and then it's just lost attacks.

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Re: Video Tutorial: Feral Single Target DPS

Post by Kheirah » Sun Oct 30, 2016 8:40 am

That's so exciting! In the beginning I felt like it's me personally who's being attacked rather than my contribution, but now we're getting somewhere, now we're talking numbers! And it's hard to argue with math! :)

Your reasoning seems correct in that it displays how stretching the opener with Shreds to build up cps prevents you from wasting valuable energy.

Here's the BUT part. But are you seriously comparing 6 seconds from my opener to 10 seconds from yours? :shock:
I mean, it's not really surprising that your opener will appear more beneficial. Let's add those 4 missing seconds and say there are 4 more Shreds. I'll take your numbers from the 4 Shreds:

147259.3 + 147259.3 + 309322.7 + 147259.3 = 751100.6

We may now add the damage from my early applied bleeds, again let's take your values:

102865.2 + 211266.7 + 34569.9 + 69930.6 = 418632.4

Adding these two together yields a total of 751100.6 + 418632.4 = 1169733

Where do we stand now?

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Re: Video Tutorial: Feral Single Target DPS

Post by Nich » Sun Oct 30, 2016 11:15 am

Kheirah wrote:Where do we stand now?
Well for one, we don't cast Healing Touch anymore. I am not happy with how much less tanky I am without HT, but at least regrowth is super quick to hardcast as needed.

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Re: Video Tutorial: Feral Single Target DPS

Post by Konungr » Sun Oct 30, 2016 3:59 pm

Kheirah wrote:That's so exciting! In the beginning I felt like it's me personally who's being attacked rather than my contribution, but now we're getting somewhere, now we're talking numbers! And it's hard to argue with math! :)

Your reasoning seems correct in that it displays how stretching the opener with Shreds to build up cps prevents you from wasting valuable energy.

Here's the BUT part. But are you seriously comparing 6 seconds from my opener to 10 seconds from yours? :shock:
I mean, it's not really surprising that your opener will appear more beneficial. Let's add those 4 missing seconds and say there are 4 more Shreds. I'll take your numbers from the 4 Shreds:

147259.3 + 147259.3 + 309322.7 + 147259.3 = 751100.6

We may now add the damage from my early applied bleeds, again let's take your values:

102865.2 + 211266.7 + 34569.9 + 69930.6 = 418632.4

Adding these two together yields a total of 751100.6 + 418632.4 = 1169733

Where do we stand now?
I focused purely on the opener for a very specific reason: If you and I were on the same fight, had identical gear and stats and both had the same OoC and trinket procs at the same times, and the only difference being the opener, you would still have lost the 82 Energy, which if used during a Berserk, is 4 Shreds, hence why I left your opener at 6 seconds. Funnily enough, my opener has more Damage but over more time, so yours is actually higher on DPS, for a few seconds at least. I did some target dummy testing where i set up both openers in a macro and ran them through multiple times and stopped as soon as Rip was applied. My opener always had more damage, but the shorter time on yours was a higher DPS. Of course, as I mentioned above, you have to consider the rest of the fight where you will not be in Berserk and your Energy level starts to wane again, is when you will feel the loss of the 82 Energy.

I agree that getting up Rip 4 seconds earlier could be a potential dps gain. Wasting Tiger's Fury is just the wrong way to go about it. You could even drop out the 3 Shreds before Savage Roar, and put up a 1-2 Point SR. The downside is that you can't get a guaranteed BloodTalons for your Rip, which we didn't calculate into the math above, and BloodTalons alone will make up the difference in those 2 extra ticks, as it's a 50% damage increase, it's the equivalent of 8 seconds of Rip being added on. So, you could get up all buffs and debuffs as quick as possible and waste Tiger's Fury, or you could delay by 4 GCDs to guarantee the use of BloodTalons, which makes up for the 4 lost seconds by double, and still make efficient use of the Tiger's Fury. Tiger's Fury has 2 components, the Energy and the Damage Buff. Regardless of which opener you use, it will be used to buff your initial Rip, so losing the Energy from it makes it about as useless as nipples on a breastplate.

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Re: Video Tutorial: Feral Single Target DPS

Post by Kheirah » Sun Oct 30, 2016 5:46 pm

Konungr wrote: I focused purely on the opener for a very specific reason: If you and I were on the same fight, had identical gear and stats and both had the same OoC and trinket procs at the same times, and the only difference being the opener, you would still have lost the 82 Energy, which if used during a Berserk, is 4 Shreds, hence why I left your opener at 6 seconds. Funnily enough, my opener has more Damage but over more time, so yours is actually higher on DPS, for a few seconds at least. I did some target dummy testing where i set up both openers in a macro and ran them through multiple times and stopped as soon as Rip was applied. My opener always had more damage, but the shorter time on yours was a higher DPS. Of course, as I mentioned above, you have to consider the rest of the fight where you will not be in Berserk and your Energy level starts to wane again, is when you will feel the loss of the 82 Energy.

I agree that getting up Rip 4 seconds earlier could be a potential dps gain. Wasting Tiger's Fury is just the wrong way to go about it. You could even drop out the 3 Shreds before Savage Roar, and put up a 1-2 Point SR. The downside is that you can't get a guaranteed BloodTalons for your Rip, which we didn't calculate into the math above, and BloodTalons alone will make up the difference in those 2 extra ticks, as it's a 50% damage increase, it's the equivalent of 8 seconds of Rip being added on. So, you could get up all buffs and debuffs as quick as possible and waste Tiger's Fury, or you could delay by 4 GCDs to guarantee the use of BloodTalons, which makes up for the 4 lost seconds by double, and still make efficient use of the Tiger's Fury. Tiger's Fury has 2 components, the Energy and the Damage Buff. Regardless of which opener you use, it will be used to buff your initial Rip, so losing the Energy from it makes it about as useless as nipples on a breastplate.
That's exactly right. That's what I've been saying all along or at least what I was thinking but perhaps didn't quite as well articulate. My opener generates more dps if I'm lucky and get a Predatory Swiftness proc from my 1-2 cps Savage Roar (for the first Rip), but it wastes a lot of energy in the process. Apart from the opener I'm trying not to waste any energy of course (well, sometimes I'm sitting for 1-2 sec at 100 energy because I already buffed BT and can't hit Shred because I need to consume the stacks with Rip and Rake).

To sum up, you agree that my opener generates more dps. I agree that you're right.
Just kidding =) I agree that your opener is safer due to the guaranteed BT stacks for Rip.

I'll add your opener to my first post to make people aware of a safer alternative. :!:

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Re: Video Tutorial: Feral Single Target DPS

Post by Nich » Sun Oct 30, 2016 10:27 pm

Kheirah wrote:(well, sometimes I'm sitting for 1-2 sec at 100 energy because I already buffed BT and can't hit Shred because I need to consume the stacks with Rip and Rake).
Isn't that when you'd hit moonfire?

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Re: Video Tutorial: Feral Single Target DPS

Post by Kheirah » Mon Oct 31, 2016 6:33 am

Nich wrote:Isn't that when you'd hit moonfire?
You could, yes. Except if the Moonfire that is on the target is stronger. But then again, it's not that much stronger, so you could just overwrite it to have a full duration of it. Maybe Konungr disagrees on that, we'll have to wait and see :P

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Konungr
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Re: Video Tutorial: Feral Single Target DPS

Post by Konungr » Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:46 pm

Kheirah wrote:
Nich wrote:Isn't that when you'd hit moonfire?
You could, yes. Except if the Moonfire that is on the target is stronger. But then again, it's not that much stronger, so you could just overwrite it to have a full duration of it. Maybe Konungr disagrees on that, we'll have to wait and see :P
If none of your DoTs are within Pandemic and it would be a loss to overwrite, you still have the option of using the BT charges on Shred and then hard-casting Regrowth for fresh BloodTalons stacks for your Rake and Rip. Hardcasting for BloodTalons isn't ideal in most situations, but it can be beneficial, and probably preferable to sit at capped energy.

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Re: Video Tutorial: Feral Single Target DPS

Post by Nich » Tue Nov 01, 2016 12:05 am

I was thinking moonfire vs sitting capped - saves having to hardcast, unless you've just put mf up it should be better damage per energy than a shred or sitting capped.

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Re: Video Tutorial: Feral Single Target DPS

Post by Jacemora » Fri Nov 04, 2016 9:40 am

Not only are you wasting energy with your opener, but you are also wasting Ashmane's 3pt benefit.

I am in the Standard Opener camp.

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Re: Video Tutorial: Feral Single Target DPS

Post by Flame » Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:42 am

This was an interesting read. I have been considering my opener recently.

Incidentally this is my first post here but I have been raiding feral since Cata and reading this forum for probably as long. Lots of great stuff on here.

My opener currently is this:

HT
Stealth
Potion
Rake
Moonfire
Pray that something has crit....
Savage roar
Pray that I get PS proc


Then I have two ways of following it up depending on the PS proc

#1 with PS proc

Tiger's Fury + Berserk
Shred
(Shred if above doesn't crit)
HT
Ashamane's Fury
= 5 CPs
Rip
HT
Rake

Continue rotation


#2 without that 2-4 point savage roar PS proc

Shred to 5 cps
Hardcast regrowth
Tiger's Fury + Berserk
Rip
Rake
Shred spam to 5 CPs
Savage roar
Shred
HT
Ashamane's Fury

Continue rotation


This opener is designed to not waste energy and to get rake and rip with TF and BT procs up as fast as poss and to use Ashamane's Fury with a BT proc.

I can't see any reason to change this?

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Re: Video Tutorial: Feral Single Target DPS

Post by Kheirah » Fri Nov 04, 2016 11:02 am

Jacemora wrote:Not only are you wasting energy with your opener, but you are also wasting Ashmane's 3pt benefit.

I am in the Standard Opener camp.
Actually, I'm not wasting the 3 cps. Simply actually watching the video may actually remedy false assertions. Just saying.

As for the "wasted energy": being capped in the beginning does in no way adversely affect the remainder of the rotation and neither does it deal less damage (it's factually deals more damage) in the short time span of the opener compared to the standard opener. To clarify, again, I do not endorse wasting energy by being capped if that results in losing dps. But that's not what's happening here. It's a trade-off, if you will. You trade energy generation loss for more dps by quickly applying all possible dots with all enhancements you have available. The circumstances are such that, in the opener, you may be capped and STILL generate more dps. That's WHY I'm doing it. Nowhere during the following rotation is this possible or sensible or recommended or whatever. Only in the opener.

I can see the pros and cons of both openers, not considering any legendary items. But once you get the legendary boots, my opener will have a guaranteed BT for the first Rip and there won't be a downside. It will always deal more damage than the standard opener.

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Re: Video Tutorial: Feral Single Target DPS

Post by Jacemora » Fri Nov 04, 2016 12:05 pm

I don't have legendary feet yet, maybe I will take another look after I get them.

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Re: Video Tutorial: Feral Single Target DPS

Post by tradepack » Tue Nov 08, 2016 6:24 pm

[*]
Kheirah wrote:
Konungr wrote: I focused purely on the opener for a very specific reason: If you and I were on the same fight, had identical gear and stats and both had the same OoC and trinket procs at the same times, and the only difference being the opener, you would still have lost the 82 Energy, which if used during a Berserk, is 4 Shreds, hence why I left your opener at 6 seconds. Funnily enough, my opener has more Damage but over more time, so yours is actually higher on DPS, for a few seconds at least. I did some target dummy testing where i set up both openers in a macro and ran them through multiple times and stopped as soon as Rip was applied. My opener always had more damage, but the shorter time on yours was a higher DPS. Of course, as I mentioned above, you have to consider the rest of the fight where you will not be in Berserk and your Energy level starts to wane again, is when you will feel the loss of the 82 Energy.

I agree that getting up Rip 4 seconds earlier could be a potential dps gain. Wasting Tiger's Fury is just the wrong way to go about it. You could even drop out the 3 Shreds before Savage Roar, and put up a 1-2 Point SR. The downside is that you can't get a guaranteed BloodTalons for your Rip, which we didn't calculate into the math above, and BloodTalons alone will make up the difference in those 2 extra ticks, as it's a 50% damage increase, it's the equivalent of 8 seconds of Rip being added on. So, you could get up all buffs and debuffs as quick as possible and waste Tiger's Fury, or you could delay by 4 GCDs to guarantee the use of BloodTalons, which makes up for the 4 lost seconds by double, and still make efficient use of the Tiger's Fury. Tiger's Fury has 2 components, the Energy and the Damage Buff. Regardless of which opener you use, it will be used to buff your initial Rip, so losing the Energy from it makes it about as useless as nipples on a breastplate.
That's exactly right. That's what I've been saying all along or at least what I was thinking but perhaps didn't quite as well articulate. My opener generates more dps if I'm lucky and get a Predatory Swiftness proc from my 1-2 cps Savage Roar (for the first Rip), but it wastes a lot of energy in the process. Apart from the opener I'm trying not to waste any energy of course (well, sometimes I'm sitting for 1-2 sec at 100 energy because I already buffed BT and can't hit Shred because I need to consume the stacks with Rip and Rake).

To sum up, you agree that my opener generates more dps. I agree that you're right.
Just kidding =) I agree that your opener is safer due to the guaranteed BT stacks for Rip.

I'll add your opener to my first post to make people aware of a safer alternative. :!:
nice discussion on openers. I had a question wondering if any of you guys could help with an answer

I used to like to use Kheirah's risky opener, but then I got Chatoyant Signet (100+ energy) and it became apparent that Kheirah's opener wasn't taking advantage of the increased energy. So I started using standard opener. But I was still finding myself energy capped.

I was thinking maybe doing something like:


(Chatoyant Signet Opener)
Rake
Shred
Shred
Shred
SR
TF
Berserk <----
Moonfire
Shred
heal
AF
Rip

not needing to berserk at the start because of the additional 100+ energy. Is this thinking correct? Anyone know a better alternate

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Re: Video Tutorial: Feral Single Target DPS

Post by Furial » Thu Nov 10, 2016 9:02 am

I too have the ring and the way I open is:

Regrowth, Stealth, Pre-pot
Rake
Moonfire
Shred to 5 CP
Savage Roar
Shred to 2 CP
Tiger's Fury + Berserk
Ashamane's Frenzy
Rip

You then have enough energy to go ahead and do a 5 CP Ferocious Bite, 5 CP refresh Rip, 5 CP refresh SR and then Rip syncs again with Tiger's Fury. It's important that you use a sequence where the necessity to refresh rip falls in line with Tiger's Fury which will often do if you make the right choices on when to refresh SR, Rip and FB (almost never).

I'm not doing mythics this expansion but my percentile's average is around the 98th mark for both normal and heroic EN (for those who won't take advice from someone who doesn't have meaninglessly high percentiles)

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Re: Video Tutorial: Feral Single Target DPS

Post by Zetnia » Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:17 pm


(Chatoyant Signet Opener)
Rake
Shred
Shred
Shred
SR
TF
Berserk <----
Moonfire
Shred
heal
AF
Rip

not needing to berserk at the start because of the additional 100+ energy. Is this thinking correct? Anyone know a better alternate
By not using Beserk before Rake from stealth, you lose out on the "Feral Instinct" trait = 15% increased dmg. Unless ofcourse i'm completely wrong here

Kittyhype
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Re: Video Tutorial: Feral Single Target DPS

Post by Kittyhype » Fri Nov 11, 2016 1:11 am

Berserc dmg buff dont snapshots so its fine

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