Hows Feral on the PTR? anyone know?

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Sashimi
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Hows Feral on the PTR? anyone know?

Post by Sashimi » Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:30 pm

wondering on the changes to us looks good or looks like they are making a attempt to improve the spec. I also dont notice any talk about us on the PTR forums? makes me kinda sad and curious why not more of us speak out? seems blizz is responding to most of the PTR posts of other classes complaining.

boo
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Re: Hows Feral on the PTR? anyone know?

Post by boo » Wed Dec 07, 2016 11:49 pm

Its clear that (currently at least) Blizzard is pretty happy with where Feral is. Not sure I agree, but the silence is deafening and really can only mean one thing...

Sashimi
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Re: Hows Feral on the PTR? anyone know?

Post by Sashimi » Thu Dec 08, 2016 1:02 am

yeah im getting kinda sad not sure if majority of the community agrees or disagrees just dont see alot of feedback last time i saw any and it was alot it was the beta in legion =(

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WhyteWidow
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Re: Hows Feral on the PTR? anyone know?

Post by WhyteWidow » Thu Dec 08, 2016 11:55 am

Feral is in a pretty good spot right now. I couldn't see much that needs to be changed.

Twitchys
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Re: Hows Feral on the PTR? anyone know?

Post by Twitchys » Thu Dec 08, 2016 12:42 pm

I think the primary complaint is feral usefulness in M+, and some raid fights such as il'gynoth with many short-lived adds. My view on this is that Blizz has said over and over again that they feel like feral's single target sustained niche is what they want, so I bet a lot of the people who may have used to reach out to devs more have accepted this. Also, as demonstrated by Guiltyas + crew's all feral m+15 showed, this weakness is not as crippling as it is viewed by the community. See also many perfectly solid il'gynoth parses by ferals. I'd say this is only a significant issue for really top-end players, who might get benched for il'gynoth, but will still get 100% brought for ursoc/guarm fights. Also this is an issue for players looking to pug m+, due to community perception. Now, some of this perception is due to the fact that really great players can handle the decision making needed to do well in m+ but less skilled/practiced players (like me since i'm resto main) would probably just put out 200k and shrug. This skill difference is part of the allure of feral to many players, but i personally think that a small to moderate swipe buff would be a reasonable approach to reducing the AoE skill gap for m+ without gutting the complexity. This is something we have been asking for for literally years now, so again it seems like Blizz had decided that they like it the way it is.

The second common complaint, which I think is more supportable by evidence, is that we are pidgeonholed into a specific talent build (SR/JW/BT). Also, this particular talent combination (along with AB) makes our optimal decision making sometimes unintuitive. FB hits like nothing, leading to us refreshing Rip incredibly early instead of losing even a tiny fraction of SR/Rip uptime by hitting a FB. All of the changes on the PTR so far have been in such a way as to try to address the talent balance concerns.

- Predator Buff (4s increased TF duration)
- Incarnation Buff (60% energy cost reduction, up from 50%)
- Sabretooth Buff (15% FB damage)
- Elune's Guidance Buff (8s duration)
- MoC Buff (15% damage on consumption of OOC)
- Brutal Slash Buff (12s(!!!) cooldown, down from 18s)

Early SimC testing I've looked at shows that most of these changes dont really change our single target choices at all, but I bet we'll be seeing a lot more variety in what we might want to use for m+ or add fights.

Nich
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Re: Hows Feral on the PTR? anyone know?

Post by Nich » Thu Dec 08, 2016 11:46 pm

I finished an 11 HOV last week with lots of CC and an hour over the timer - just for the chest. This week I finished an Eye 10 within the timer.

The DPS requirements are I think within feral's grasp, it's just so much other coordination that I'm not surprised about pug issues.

As far as AOE goes, I don't think swipe actually needs much/any buff. I'd say maybe increase thrash by 25% and lower the legendary bracers to 50%, maybe, to help balance AOE that way. As far as FB? Yes. Please yes. I finally saw a decent crit - TF plus zerk + BT, and it still only crit for about 650k. That's not much at all considering all the setup required.

I'm ok with PTR changes to talents and etc so far, as long as they fix actual issues (IMO), like longstanding bugs with MF eating BT stacks, unable to spend CP on a target despite it not being a parry, leap breaking stealth.

Kittyhype
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Re: Hows Feral on the PTR? anyone know?

Post by Kittyhype » Fri Dec 09, 2016 5:13 am

Hey guys,
In my opinion ferals are great in M+ atm when u have 2 other AoE DD's like mage, dh, dk or monk.
In our group my job is focusing big lifepoolmobs and boss dmg, so I do about 45% of the dmg to the boss.

Now to the PTR changes:
I think the sabertooth buff would be AMAZING with the gloves because u got so much points when rip rake and ashamanes rip. I think the 15% buff for FB could be great

Sashimi
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Re: Hows Feral on the PTR? anyone know?

Post by Sashimi » Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:44 pm

Yeah I agree with all you peeps honestly some bug fixing and number tuning would be solid for us. FB needs a good one to much setup for decent damage, AOE I don't mind as long as we fill or niche 100% but we don't so little buffs to thrash or our talent brutal slash would be OK, but still our niche is not the best still ST or cleave I catch frost DKS and Enhance shamans outputting alot more which makes me a sad panda.

boo
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Re: Hows Feral on the PTR? anyone know?

Post by boo » Fri Dec 09, 2016 6:42 pm

Twitchys wrote:I think the primary complaint is feral usefulness in M+, and some raid fights such as il'gynoth with many short-lived adds. My view on this is that Blizz has said over and over again that they feel like feral's single target sustained niche is what they want, so I bet a lot of the people who may have used to reach out to devs more have accepted this. Also, as demonstrated by Guiltyas + crew's all feral m+15 showed, this weakness is not as crippling as it is viewed by the community...Also this is an issue for players looking to pug m+, due to community perception.
The problem from the pugging perspective is that the public is aware that ferals ST niche isnt strong enough to make up for the dismal trash performance, and honestly I cant disagree with that.

Whats more appealing a feral who does 400-500K trash AoE and 400K boss dps or a demonhunter/WW Monk/mage/hunter who does 75-100% more trash dps and 85-95% of the boss dmg? Again this is from the pugging perspective as guild runs are going to be more about personal relationships and not bottomline number potential.

Niche performance/specialization is well and fine as long as the equations and niches are balanced across classes and specs which is clearly not the case.

cg1351
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Re: Hows Feral on the PTR? anyone know?

Post by cg1351 » Fri Dec 09, 2016 7:39 pm

With legendary gloves if you force tank to pull aoe packs(5-10) and they live you just end up rotating thrash/rip with your blood talons procs; I end up with like 750k+ on those type of trash packs, 650k+ on 2 target cleave and like 1.25-2mil on burst aoe. Boss dps is constantly over 500k if you flask food and pot and higher on shorter fights/anything with cleave, we do really good on fights like serpentrix cos of our high bleed damage and mobility. It's just a perspective problem, feral is/has been/will always be strong if you can play it well but the public will always treat everyone like an average/slightly bad feral that is useless for what they need; That being said a firemage can literally just push living bomb and blow your aoe out of the water lol

Sashimi
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Re: Hows Feral on the PTR? anyone know?

Post by Sashimi » Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:30 pm

yeah i have done up to +12 with my guild so im not worry too much on M+ but more on Mythic raiding since i do that more i just see my niche non-existence on fights that i should be high on but i either barely beat people or people beat me. Dont get me wrong im usually in the top 5 but i expect to be higher in damage with my so called "niche" ./sadpanda

Cluey
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Re: Hows Feral on the PTR? anyone know?

Post by Cluey » Sat Dec 10, 2016 12:21 pm

Nich wrote:I finished an 11 HOV last week with lots of CC and an hour over the timer - just for the chest. This week I finished an Eye 10 within the timer.

The DPS requirements are I think within feral's grasp, it's just so much other coordination that I'm not surprised about pug issues.

As far as AOE goes, I don't think swipe actually needs much/any buff. I'd say maybe increase thrash by 25% and lower the legendary bracers to 50%, maybe, to help balance AOE that way. As far as FB? Yes. Please yes. I finally saw a decent crit - TF plus zerk + BT, and it still only crit for about 650k. That's not much at all considering all the setup required.

I'm ok with PTR changes to talents and etc so far, as long as they fix actual issues (IMO), like longstanding bugs with MF eating BT stacks, unable to spend CP on a target despite it not being a parry, leap breaking stealth.
I've only done a 9+ so far but I've been terribly casual, I haven't done any pugging with it as it's just disheartening waiting so long. Luckily I'm pretty patient so I just chase AP via WQ and tanking a random until friends get on and we do an M+. Far from ideal but I have lots of time and don't need the stress from pugging anyway.

Last time I checked the cat charge wasn't breaking stealth now. Technically it isn't now, but the mobs know we're there and attack us breaking stealth.

The OoC change feels terrible whenever it stops you putting a TF/BT Rake/Rip up in time. You wouldn't expect this to happen often but because of the short windows we have to play with all it takes is it proccing at the wrong time.
I can't tell you about Moonfire eating BT buffs as I didn't test that, I'll try and work that out this week.

Ferocious Bite is still too weak but they've made us a Maim legendary, which seems like wasted dev time to me given it won't work in any real PvP.

I like your idea about Thrash damage and associated legendary, I've got those bracers and they're really strong when you can use them. While learning the M+ dungeons I've pulled a lot more trash with them than required. With Balance Affinity they have a 23y range! I specced out of that and it's better except for staying on the target. Strangely enough when I've got a humanoid costume on I don't find it as hard to achieve, so the cat form model is still awkward at times. Note that I've been playing feral a long time and very rarely play alts, so I shouldn't find that, but I do.

Given the complexity of our spec to get the good, niche, ST damage they've put us in I think it's fair to expect we'll be ahead of the 3-5 button classes which also do better at AoE, with even less effort. But the effort:reward ratio thing seems to have been forgotten by them the last few years.

Sashimi
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Re: Hows Feral on the PTR? anyone know?

Post by Sashimi » Sun Dec 11, 2016 8:19 pm

well feral druid forums posts on the ptr are getting some life back which is good but its mostly people whining about AOE.... and how clunky the spec is.... which i dont agree at all i dont mind we are not a AOE class thats not uber strong. The fact is we are suppost to be ST sustain / cleave badass and it does not show sadly. In mythic raiding im usually top 5 on bosses depending but i dont think i have a niche other than movement.... hopefully a new ptr build soon =(

RareBeast
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Re: Hows Feral on the PTR? anyone know?

Post by RareBeast » Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:19 am

When feeling lazy I hope for a ST buff and an AoE nerf so my guild will let me sit on the boss the whole fight! :)

Sashimi
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Re: Hows Feral on the PTR? anyone know?

Post by Sashimi » Tue Dec 13, 2016 2:34 pm

RareBeast wrote:When feeling lazy I hope for a ST buff and an AoE nerf so my guild will let me sit on the boss the whole fight! :)
That could be nice

Yggsdrasil
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Re: Hows Feral on the PTR? anyone know?

Post by Yggsdrasil » Tue Dec 13, 2016 3:12 pm

Sashimi wrote:The fact is we are suppost to be ST sustain / cleave badass and it does not show sadly.
I disagree. We absolutely are beast at ST and cleave. If you're playing correctly, you should top the meters on every fight except Ily/Xavius, by a large margin too. Assassination rogues and Paladins can compete on pulls where they proc lucky and I proc unlucky but we are by far the best ST spec right now in my experience.

Ghrell
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Re: Hows Feral on the PTR? anyone know?

Post by Ghrell » Tue Dec 13, 2016 7:06 pm

Yggsdrasil wrote:
Sashimi wrote:The fact is we are suppost to be ST sustain / cleave badass and it does not show sadly.
I disagree. We absolutely are beast at ST and cleave. If you're playing correctly, you should top the meters on every fight except Ily/Xavius, by a large margin too. Assassination rogues and Paladins can compete on pulls where they proc lucky and I proc unlucky but we are by far the best ST spec right now in my experience.
Warcraftlogs tends to find us less beastly. We're regularly behind Enhance, Subtlety, Assassination, Arms, Spriest, Demo and tied with Ret.

And these numbers become even more pronounced the higher the 'bracket' you go where even mages with their legendary bracers/ring/gloves start appearing. In fact I couldn't find a single parse ST or Cleave where feral was even in the top 5 specs. Which completely demolishes the idea that feral can't be good in AoE because we're good in ST. We're slightly ahead of the pack in ST and bottom in AoE and that's not okay.

Sashimi
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Re: Hows Feral on the PTR? anyone know?

Post by Sashimi » Wed Dec 14, 2016 6:01 am

Ghrell wrote:
Yggsdrasil wrote:
Sashimi wrote:The fact is we are suppost to be ST sustain / cleave badass and it does not show sadly.
I disagree. We absolutely are beast at ST and cleave. If you're playing correctly, you should top the meters on every fight except Ily/Xavius, by a large margin too. Assassination rogues and Paladins can compete on pulls where they proc lucky and I proc unlucky but we are by far the best ST spec right now in my experience.
Warcraftlogs tends to find us less beastly. We're regularly behind Enhance, Subtlety, Assassination, Arms, Spriest, Demo and tied with Ret.

And these numbers become even more pronounced the higher the 'bracket' you go where even mages with their legendary bracers/ring/gloves start appearing. In fact I couldn't find a single parse ST or Cleave where feral was even in the top 5 specs. Which completely demolishes the idea that feral can't be good in AoE because we're good in ST. We're slightly ahead of the pack in ST and bottom in AoE and that's not okay.
lol was about to say i havent seen really ferals top meters according to logs and i do a fair amount of research to try to see what top ferals are using for certain fights. Sad to say my friend that Ghrell speaks the truth in my mythic raids those classes usually output way more, but in my raid im usually in the top 5 in most fights its just the effort to put in to be where im at is kinda crazy haha

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