T19 set bonuses, thrash, single target, luffa

Face-rippin fun.

Moderator: Forum Administrators

Post Reply
Nich
Honored
Posts: 148
Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2010 11:29 pm

T19 set bonuses, thrash, single target, luffa

Post by Nich » Fri Jan 20, 2017 12:48 am

When thrash gives a CP, and boosts the damage of shred, will it be worth casting thrash in the single target rotation?

I'm at a target dummy looking at some rough numbers with armour taken into account:

Shred is doing about 130k damage for 40 energy. It has a 15% higher change to crit, via 'Feral Power', and ignores 15% armour if rip is running.

Thrash is doing about 240k damage for 50 energy, thanks to the luffa wrappings 75% bonus.

This is with SR up, but not using BT procs. Ignoring crit, naively this should give shred a damage per energy (dpe) of 3250, and thrash 4800 dpe.

For clarity, in getting these numbers, my druid had:
898 artefact weapon
30082 agi
29.27% crit (base, not including BS)
10.5% haste
60.43% mastery
5.84% versatility



My understanding is that thrash on single target was considered a waste because a) high energy cost, and b) doesn't generate CP. Assuming it crits for 2 CP like shred, then 2PT19 seems to make that less of a problem. At least with Luffa wrappings.

I'm just not sure how to weigh up the opportunity costs involved.

Pororoka
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2015 12:46 pm

Re: T19 set bonuses, thrash, single target, luffa

Post by Pororoka » Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:27 am

Only the 4pc Bonus will give you a big dps increase, the 2pc bonus is useless alone.
With 4pc trash find its way in your rotation, but only use it with clear cast!

And dont waste any BT procc for it, better spend for rake and rip

rgcic
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: T19 set bonuses, thrash, single target, luffa

Post by rgcic » Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:09 pm

Does someone know if it makes sense to drop JW for Sabertooth with 4 set bonus?
As you are refreshing RIP with FB and trying to have 3 dots up i guess which means 45% more shred dmg.
Or is JW still stronger?

Nich
Honored
Posts: 148
Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2010 11:29 pm

Re: T19 set bonuses, thrash, single target, luffa

Post by Nich » Mon Jan 23, 2017 10:11 pm

I'd still like someone to give me an idea of how my math is wrong/what the correct math is in this situation. Especially now that I am running bracers/boots: I can't imagine using a BT buff on shred would make it better than on thrash.

The biggest downside (IMO) seems to be the thrash range being so big, so the potential for hitting more things that should not be hit (out of combat, cc'd, etc).

Kairee
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 4:42 am

Re: T19 set bonuses, thrash, single target, luffa

Post by Kairee » Tue Jan 24, 2017 4:57 am

I do not own Luffa's, nor do I have the 2pc/4pc set bonusses, so here's my questions for you:

I guess your math takes into account that Thrash can do it's full damage. (aka: the mob doesn't die before the bleed runs out)
If you take this into account, how does it compare then?

Also, how does it feel playing like that? Even if the dpe is higher than Shred, Thrash costs more energy. Are you still able to make the rotation work out? Are you generating enough combo points and energy to not have Rip/SR drop off?

Nich
Honored
Posts: 148
Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2010 11:29 pm

Re: T19 set bonuses, thrash, single target, luffa

Post by Nich » Tue Jan 24, 2017 5:36 am

Kairee wrote:Also, how does it feel playing like that? Even if the dpe is higher than Shred, Thrash costs more energy. Are you still able to make the rotation work out? Are you generating enough combo points and energy to not have Rip/SR drop off?
This is my real concern. I don't have the set pieces to try, hence asking. In theory it's basically using thrash like someone with LI would moonfire. But I'm not sure if that extra 10 energy would be enough to throw things askew.


As far as the other questions, it would I imagine depend on the health of a given target, time-to-live, etc (ie, I don't know).

I'm also now sure how it'll play out with the artefact talent changes slated for 7.2, tho' they're currently so early in testing I'm not sure we can make many meaningful considerations.

Kairee
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 4:42 am

Re: T19 set bonuses, thrash, single target, luffa

Post by Kairee » Tue Jan 24, 2017 7:00 am

You raise an interesting point.
I've gotten the gloves just before the OoC change, so I've not really had trouble with the rotation becoming clunky.
I guess if the rotation is already clunky, it's not gonna get better by using Thrash in it.
Perhaps only use it on OoC proc?

User avatar
Tinderhoof
Exalted
Posts: 2234
Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 10:21 pm

Re: T19 set bonuses, thrash, single target, luffa

Post by Tinderhoof » Wed Jan 25, 2017 4:26 pm

rgcic wrote:Does someone know if it makes sense to drop JW for Sabertooth with 4 set bonus?
As you are refreshing RIP with FB and trying to have 3 dots up i guess which means 45% more shred dmg.
Or is JW still stronger?
I don't understand the question here. You will have 3 bleeds if you take JW or Sabertooth (Rake, Rip, Thrash). JW still does more damage than Sabertooth so it's not going to change with the 4p.

Nich
Honored
Posts: 148
Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2010 11:29 pm

Re: T19 set bonuses, thrash, single target, luffa

Post by Nich » Thu Feb 02, 2017 9:17 am

2p and luffa obtained. Annecdotally, the rotation feels a lot smoother with the CP generation.

I've also been playing with predator, tho, because Nighthold and non-Tyrannical week, so that helps a lot too on most fights.

Kairee
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 4:42 am

Re: T19 set bonuses, thrash, single target, luffa

Post by Kairee » Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:23 am

Yes, I've been trying out Predator on a few fights as well, but I feel I get better results with BS most fights. What other legendary are you using? And are you now using Thrash on ST?

If I look at the other feral in my raid (2 set + luffa, I got neither), he's generating a lot more damage with Thrash, but on Rake + Rip I'm much further ahead. I'm ahead on ST fights, but as soon as there's something with adds (most fights in NH) he's usually above me on dps. Is Luffas + 2 set such a big difference?

I'm interested in your findings once you obtain 4 set bonus. If it's worth trying to keep up Thrash on ST.
If I calculate on Shred (based on my HC Trilliax results), it's 3.2% (with 2 bleeds) or 4.8% (with 3 bleeds) damage increase.

Nich
Honored
Posts: 148
Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2010 11:29 pm

Re: T19 set bonuses, thrash, single target, luffa

Post by Nich » Fri Feb 03, 2017 12:12 am

I'm using 940 versions of the wrists and boots, so I am trying to pool enough charges to make sure thrash, rip and rake almost always have BT up.

I'm not really a fan of predator because normally most adds die at the same time, but it seems silly to not make use of it right now when I am pressing all the buttons anyway. I haven't tried BS again - maybe next week? - but compared to another feral I raid with who has gloves and belt as his legendaries, and no 2p, he consistantly does more rip/rake damage than me, both because of his gear/talent choices, and because he keeps better uptime. My thrash damage was making up for it, tho'.

Simcraft says predator is something like a 40-50k dps drop on single target, tho', and I'd believe it.

Cluey
Honored
Posts: 54
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:11 pm

Re: T19 set bonuses, thrash, single target, luffa

Post by Cluey » Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:31 pm

Nich wrote:I'm not really a fan of predator because normally most adds die at the same time *snip*
Simcraft says predator is something like a 40-50k dps drop on single target, tho', and I'd believe it.
Yeah it's not great single target even with the extra four seconds of 15% damage, but I don't think there's supposed to be a clear winner.

Adds dying at the same time depends on your raid composition, so it will vary for everyone. For me they seem a bit staggered but there's no warlock or mage, which is really strange. Lots of hunters though.
I've only done two on heroic, I'm being very casual these days.

Scorpyron there's enough HP difference between the larger and smaller ones you should be able to get two resets, possibly more if you're really quick or a bonus lot came in a little later. Strangely enough failing to hide from the Shockwave doesn't really lead to a wipe but does lead to crazy DPS from AoE classes, all of the ranking fights, on heroic, are doing this. Similar kill times to the group I'm playing with but four times the scorpids!

Chronomatic Anomaly you can get at least two each go as well, given the smaller ones don't spawn until the bigger one dies. I specifically target one smaller one and Rake it, then get on the boss so I can get a buffed Rip plus main damage on it. Most of the time I can get two resets here but I have to be quick here and I'm sure I cap energy so I don't know how much benefit I'm really getting. It feels like the ring would be handy here but I haven't upgraded it yet.

Nothing on Trillax or Krosus, unless you can convince your raid to let melee have an add spawn just for you. ;-)

Spellblade Aluriel has quite a few options but it will depend on how well your raid handles grouping things up and if they evenly kill them. I can usually get two resets an add wave.

Star Augur Etraeus. When we first got to him I ran Blood Scent because I was told it was single target but as we got further into the fight it became obvious that the end was where it was all falling apart, I swapped back to Predator as there are lots of the little ones and with Luffa's you can hit them all and they die easily. I'm getting better at keeping a buffed Rip going on the boss while turning away from the fear now but haven't had that many goes. I'm just going with mental arithmetic saying that the 15% flat damage buff while TF us up is better than 10% crit, it's almost always up with all those little mobs around at the end.

High Botanist Tel'arn. I've been running Predator on this fight too, there seem to be enough targets to get a reset on although I imagine it would be painful without a 23y Thrash range. You can't always get the lashers but there's a decent chance they'll be close enough, it's only when they're on someone right out on the edge. I can normally tag two of the fire orbs too, after that it all gets rather hectic and my PC starts behaving like a 486 trying to play Quake (You're probably all too young to understand that). I struggle to keep track of which of the boss versions I've got DoT's on and at 9FPS it's really painful. :-(

Tichondrius has been a lot of fun with Predator, once again Balance Affinity and Luffa's make it significantly easier to manage. The further the fight progresses the more opportunities there are to get a reset as the different adds have different health pools.

Elisande. There are adds but I've only killed her once so I don't think I'm in any position to make a call, other than saying the fight sucks with slow learners. I think Predator was beneficial but the group wasn't consistent enough for me to get a decent feel for the timings to know if I'd be shaving five seconds off the CD or fifteen.

Gul'dan. Also only one kill but it felt pretty good here, enough consistent spawns to get multiple resets each wave. At least for me, if your group has amazing ranged players who can all choose different ones in even ratios so they die at the same time with random melee damage as they come in range you might not be as lucky, but I found they'd come in, I'd get a DoT on them, they'd go elsewhere and die, then the next eye would do the same thing.


Well I typed way more than I expected or meant to. I should go to bed, like I meant to two hours ago.

Nich
Honored
Posts: 148
Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2010 11:29 pm

Re: T19 set bonuses, thrash, single target, luffa

Post by Nich » Mon Feb 06, 2017 11:06 pm

:D


Krossus was being a real pain for the guild and there were no small adds spawning most wipes, so I went back to BS and low and behold, much better DPS from me but also suddenly there are adds on every spawn. Go figure, but at least we got a kill.

High Botanist thankfully doesn't remind me of 90s 3d gaming in a pre-pentium era. I find the extra TF refreshes helps a lottt as far as trying to keep rip on multiple Botanists.


I got lucky with getting 4p with only a slightly ilvl decrease. I suspect that might help predator DPS reasonably: I've found that between rolling three bleeds on a target (and running BS), there's not a lot of energy left for shredding to take advantage of the extra damage boost. Part of me wants to take LI again tho' just so I almost never press shred, for shits and giggles.

Cluey
Honored
Posts: 54
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:11 pm

Re: T19 set bonuses, thrash, single target, luffa

Post by Cluey » Wed Feb 08, 2017 1:10 pm

Nich wrote:Part of me wants to take LI again tho' just so I almost never press shred, for shits and giggles.
Oh, we have a masochist!

I'm quite glad that it isn't better than Blood Scent any more, I thought it felt really awkward and didn't really fit. The only real loss is not having a ranged pull option without dropping form.

I feel myself getting older, I have trouble keeping up with the bleeds on multiple targets plus the movement to avoid things.
Dropped my video settings down a couple of notches and it's smoother but some things are no harder to see.
Forgot pots but managed 96% for my ilvl and 94% overall, which makes me think I'm not the only person having trouble keeping up with everything going on at the end. I was quite happy with the result but grumpy with myself for forgetting pots.

I did better on Krosus this week but not well enough still, only 89% Rip and 88% Rake. They both dropped off as we had to run away so I have to get more familiar with the timings so I know when that will happen. It doesn't help them I run with two different groups with players who just seem to randomly press buttons. Looking at their opening choices is so baffling I've had to stop before I lose more sanity. :roll:

Nich
Honored
Posts: 148
Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2010 11:29 pm

Re: T19 set bonuses, thrash, single target, luffa

Post by Nich » Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:13 pm

I took LI and played around with a target dummy for a bit. keeping rip, rake, thrash and moonfire up full time made me play with more attention to energy pooling, than I ordinarily would, which was unexpected. As was shred still being a high source of damage even when pressed less often.

Hopefully will get a chance to try out Nighthold tonight and see how BS instead of Predator changes things up.

ShmooDude
Exalted
Posts: 1054
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:51 pm

Re: T19 set bonuses, thrash, single target, luffa

Post by ShmooDude » Thu Feb 09, 2017 1:37 am

Yeah, tier bonus devalues LI, especially if you have luffa.

Kairee
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 4:42 am

Re: T19 set bonuses, thrash, single target, luffa

Post by Kairee » Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:34 am

I tried LI yesterday on Botanist and Elisande. Can't really say I felt like I had more energy using Moonfire instead of Shred. Although Moonfire did a good chunk of my damage, I didn't feel like rotation was easier to maintain, or that I could take any advantage of generating more CPs for less energy.

The 4 set + Luffa worked rather well for my fellow feral raider. He got some nice results on Tichondrius with Predator.

Nich
Honored
Posts: 148
Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2010 11:29 pm

Re: T19 set bonuses, thrash, single target, luffa

Post by Nich » Sat Feb 25, 2017 10:22 am

I've stuck with predator because m+ and Nighthold except for one or two bosses. I'm really noticing the lack of crit lately. 23% or so makes extra CP really sporadic.

Anyway.

I've started to get some better rankings/parses on heroic fights, now I'm more familiar with them (and work is playing nice). http://clawnalyst.nimos.ws/ shows me uptimes for rip and rake and SR and TF and etc, but not for thrash. Ideally in my proposed scenario, I'd keep a high uptime on, especially with BT and TF, on all three bleeds. Does anyone know a way to track this outside of log sites specifically?

Next lockout I'm pondering going back to a non-predator build and trying thrash only on OOC procs, to see how the damage breakdowns vary. And also just to get the extra crit % from more shreds + BS.

Nich
Honored
Posts: 148
Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2010 11:29 pm

Re: T19 set bonuses, thrash, single target, luffa

Post by Nich » Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:16 pm

I'm attempting to math this all out again, and have a rough idea of how to compare the damage of shred and thrash, taking into account crit differences, shadow thrash, etc, but there are two things I'm stuck on right now:


Rip causing shred to have 15% armor penetration is great, but I'm not sure how to do this math anymore because I haven't had arp in a long time.

I can't work out how to actually pull apart/put together the various coefficients for feral, excluding BT and SR. Thrash? Thrash? At least that's some kind of value based on AP only. But shred is based off of weapon damage but not the actual melee attack damage.

Thrash with Luffa is still better DPE than shred, on their own.
Shred with the native 20% buff when a bleed is active, is almost the same DPE as thrash, but not quite.
Shred with a bleed up in T194p is better DPE than thrash.

I find when I am settled in to a fairly stable rotation, by the time I reapply SR, I get off a rake, thrash, and two shreds to apply rip. Then rake, thrash, and 2 shreds to reapply SR. So the opportunity cost, I think, would then be whether you use rake thrash shred shred as a filler, or rake shred shred shred - or, whether 2 bleeds(shred shred shred) > 3 bleeds(shred shred)+thrash.


Because I don't have the actual coefficients, I can't give a universal neat number. Using my cobbled together spreadsheet with tooltip numbers (so gg armour reduction on shred etc), including SR and BT on everything:

2 bleeds(shred shred shred) = 11050 dpe

3 bleeds(shred shred)+thrash = 11082 dps



Taking into account crit, SSS is slightly ahead on DPE (16835 vs 16394)

Taking into account shadow thrash, SST > SSS (17266 vs 16835).


As I said, naive tooltip numbers for thrash and shred, and shred will be lower - but unsure by how much.
To naivly model crit, I multiplied the base damage by (1+(modified)crit chance); for thrash, I multiplied the base damage by total damage from two ticks, and quartered it. Because total Shadowthrash damage is about the same as total Thrash damage, this, very generally, gives Thrash an extra 25% crit rate.

Post Reply