We're doomed my feral friends

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Tareko
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Re: We're doomed my feral friends

Post by Tareko » Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:06 am

well... that's unfortunate to say the least...

Nich
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Re: We're doomed my feral friends

Post by Nich » Fri Jun 16, 2017 4:01 pm

Wish I had been linked to that google doc months ago when I was looking for help with the math on thrash vs shred : \

Whitepaw
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Re: We're doomed my feral friends

Post by Whitepaw » Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:17 pm

I'd like to sympathise, but when I think about the number of times I (and others) have posted a well-founded opinion about Feral and been subjected to mockery and slander from some of the "top" Ferals - who's only acclaim has been that they have had the time and inclination to raid with the spec - I can only say: You reap what you sow.

It certainly hasn't helped that some of these frequent posters have argued against common logic - which is now explained as "covering for Blizzard". When I look in my posting history from MMO-C, I have continuously argued for our spec to get buffed AoE (which it now has, due to Artifact improvements), buffed FB (which has now happened, 10 months too late), some kind of solution to tight timers on the SR/Rip rotation (which has been "fixed" to some degree by the new ring and tier 20 bonus - although the latter has now been nerfed).

But with every discussion, the answer from quite a few of these guys (with their "followers" - even saying that displays arrogance) has been that my suggestions were stupid, my line of reasoning flawed, I should play a rogue instead etc. Others have been treated even worse.

My suggestions (and others) were sound - and it's fair to discuss them (and disagree with them as well, ofc). But being that abusive has driven some people away from even participating, as this group of players elevated themselves to be Arch druids. Instead of arguing for changes to Feral abilities, they have decided that players should just persevere and "gitgud" (yes, I hate that term as well - arrogant as hell) - and rely on our gear to patch our dps rotation and abilities. That was the wrong strategy imo and it has now backfired.

So, if Zanzha has now been humbled, I can only say: About time. If he decides to hang up his paws and go elsewhere, that's fine as well. But he - and some of his "followers" - have been a part of the problem for some time now. He should have owned up to that.

Oh, and to those interested: We are now pretty average (when simulated) on single target dps.

NB: There are ofc very pro Ferals who do NOT participate in the abusive sh!t happening on different forums and the Feral discord channel. Unfortunately, the others are that much louder.

ellorien
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Re: We're doomed my feral friends

Post by ellorien » Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:21 pm

Here's some new feedback yesterday from the devs:
Something that's on our radar is how constrained the rotation is with both Jagged Wounds and Savage Roar. The lowest-priority finisher (Ferocious Bite) gets pushed out too much with the combination of those two talents, which also currently happen to be too favored for DPS purposes. Both of those talents likely have too much of an impact on the pacing of the spec's rotation (for what a talent should do). In both cases we should probably reduce the talent's impact on pacing (that is, on GCD/resource usage) and either A) increase its DPS in some pacing-neutral fashion, or B) let the talent value sink if it's currently dominating its row, and counterbuff the spec some other way.

This is a broader issue that we've started looking at more often since 7.0, when the number and complexity of spec-specific rotation-modifying talents/bonuses increased dramatically. Problems like having too many or too few open GCDs, or resource starvation/flooding, spring up a lot more often when 5 rows of talents + legendaries/traits can be potentially moved in and out of the same rotation. And because talents already have a tuning constraint (they need to be DPS-balanced within their row), the pacing effect can't always be easily tuned on its own. I'd expect a more common trend of talents having a simple added effect that boosts DPS so the talent can be tuned without introducing an overly large pacing swing (seen already with many recent redesigns: Soul of the Forest, Legacy of the Void, Boulderfist, Reverse Entropy, and so forth).
Thread:
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/top ... ?page=3#47

Whitepaw
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Re: We're doomed my feral friends

Post by Whitepaw » Thu Jun 22, 2017 6:21 pm

Indeed. The whole idea behind Feral dps that went live when Legion launched is now being called out for what it has been all along: Too much cookie-cutter talents, way too bleed-centric, a rotation which is way too tight - and so we can only hope that Blizzard will start balancing talents and abilities right away.

But since the most recent changes has continued to weaken SotF, I fear that we will not see more substantial changes before patch 7.3 - maybe even next expansion. So while some Ferals might get hopeful because Blizzard has now posted a response showing that they acknowledge Feral issues, the solution seems to be far away.

And so Legion will pretty much be a wasted expansion for Feral.

NB: The lacklustre Affinity talent row was not addressed in this post - even though it reeks of missed opportunity.

Istaro
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Re: We're doomed my feral friends

Post by Istaro » Thu Jun 22, 2017 6:40 pm

I don't think any of the stuff mentioned in that blue post is the reason that pugs generally don't allow ferals.

Nich
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Re: We're doomed my feral friends

Post by Nich » Thu Jun 22, 2017 9:54 pm

This expansion has gone some way to giving talents for different playstyles and balancing within the tier, but I'm surprised they weren't able to effect the same thing for letting the player decide if they want to focus on DoTs or DD, in the same way that assassination rogues can do so with bleeds or poisons for their dots.

Whitepaw
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Re: We're doomed my feral friends

Post by Whitepaw » Fri Jun 23, 2017 2:18 am

Istaro wrote:I don't think any of the stuff mentioned in that blue post is the reason that pugs generally don't allow ferals.
Addressing the tight rotation and the extreme backloading of dps would help with the player perception of Feral. If we could deliver more dps as direct damage, we would be seen as more efficient and desirable to bring along.

I do believe that the lack of AoE has been addressed to some degree by buffing our abilities via our artifact weapon. I don't know how much that has succeeded when you compare to the classes which can do a lot of AoE (and some of which can also do more single target).

But the lack of utility hasn't been addressed. It would be nice if those Affinity spells could deliver more than just a passive effect. Paying a whole talent slot for basically 5 yards range is over budget imo (or a trivial and random AoE heal). As a Feral since patch 1.8, I just hate how much we have lost of our Druidic play style and awesomeness, while other classes have gained truly valuable utility (like immunities) and even instant self heals to make them more competitive.

Affinities were meant to fix this, but has been undertuned and even nerfed during Legion.

ellorien
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Re: We're doomed my feral friends

Post by ellorien » Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:52 pm

I'm sure everyone has seen the feral portion of the Reddit class design AMA 2 weeks ago, but adding it in for reference anyway:
It is currently beneficial for feral to farm t19 for high titanforges over the current tierset. Do you think this is acceptable, and if not what would the likely course of action be? Having farmed previous content for just a single warforge with RoRo in Siege I personally don't have any desire to go through months of farming old content, often in pugs, ever again.
In general, we want players to move onto the next raid tiers. However, there are some caveats. If you're comparing your Mythic titanforged Nighthold gear compared to Heroic Tomb gear, there's certainly a chance that based on ilvl alone, your Nighthold gear might be better. We currently don't tune the bonuses on Tier 20 to be better than Tier 19 or vice versa, and expect the ilvl increase to carry much of the throughput increase in cases where they are similar. In the cases where T19 was out of band, we did a tuning pass in 7.2.5 to reduce the throughput of those overperforming T19 set bonuses to make room for T20 to be good. That all said, if the power level of T19 2pc+4pc is significantly higher than the power level of T20 2pc+4pc, we would want to adjust one or the other to address it.

Feral T20 has seen a big change going from PTR to Live. The reduction of the damage increase on Rip is acceptable, but a lot of people are [something annoyed] that the duration increase of Rip got reduced, as it made the rotation feel different and [better], and made the aspect of multi-dotting "feel" better. [Something more about 2pc]. How do you feel about this.
The changes were made purely for tuning purposes. T20 2pc+4pc was coming out to be far out of band in terms of our target throughput for a 2pc+4pc set bonus (somewhere around 8-10% total). I understand Ferals were upset with the changes more because they saw T20 4pc as something that made the spec's Jagged Wounds short DoT-duration gameplay a little easier to manage, and which also would have opened up the recently buffed Ferocious Bite to be used more. It might have been better to chance it to Rip damage increased by 5% and Rip duration increased by 6 sec instead of what we have now, but I'm not sure it's something we'd want to change now that the set bonus is out.

In reaction to the weak tier 20, another conundrum has arisen regarding the class's tuning, currently we are looking to be an exeptionally good generalist. Another flat buff could risk exacerbate this, whereas further adjustment to our tierset and tying in our power with it would help the specc keep up to pace whilst having a bit more of a niche for the duration of the tier. What direction do you see feral going in, something more of a niche role focused around multidotting or the current incarnation which is something inbetween?
I'm not sure I know what answer you're looking for but, I would say: Feral is probably going to be a strong single-target spec. Its playstyle and damage profile is similar to Assassination Rogue (which is clearly a single-target spec) in that it has many damage over abilities. The spec clearly has talents that can help in multitarget situations (e.g. Sabertooth, Soul of the Forest, Brutal Slash) but other talents on those tiers (Jagged Wounds, Savage Roar, Bloodtalons) are so much stronger right now tuning-wise that it's hard to pick the "AOE talents that make your AOE life better" because it's probably not a gain.

Are you aware of problems with Ekowraith and Sylvan amulet and is there any plan to fix them ? The current logs were feral is just about keeping pace is largley propped up by this problem by a factor of almost 4-5%, are we likely to see any compensation in the event of a fix ?
Generally speaking, in the event of any bugfix which significantly changes the throughput of a spec, we would always want to compensate by tuning, unless that spec is clearly overperforming.

Haste is a crazy stat for feral, its good in small quantities but it gets increasingly worth, and theoretically even into negative value at high levels, any thoughts on how it could be made a more interesting stat for us ? It's primary problem is that it serves to help resource generation but doesn't give any throughput to raw damage, unlike critical strike which is able to grant damge throughput while increasing resource generation. Personal ideas include interaction with duration / cooldown on tiger's fury, or allowing haste to affect bleeds.
This haste problem also puts us in a position where we really don't care about heroism, something that's meant to feel like a really cool and awesome moment for the whole raid when playing feral just feels... meh.
Honestly... I have no idea why Haste doesn't affect Bleed tickrates. I just looked at Sigma and asked him if he knows, and he doesn't know either. That's the way it was when I got here. Maybe fantasy-wise the thinking used to be that magical DoTs are magic, so Haste can magically dynamically change their tickrates - I'm not sure. I think it's a problem worth looking into more deeply - it affects Assassination Rogue as well. Maybe Haste can affect Bleeds in the future, but we'd have to dig in deeper to clearly understand all the ramifications of such a change, and this isn't likely to happen within a patch.

What are your thoughts on snapshotting for feral? Many players enjoy this, many feel it is overly complicated, do you think it works well as a unique mechanic for feral?
Snapshotting Bleeds is definitely more complexity than we generally like for specs, but we realize it's something Ferals have been playing with for a long time, and as such are reluctant to change. It definitely works for Feral, but it's complex enough that to leave it as is, it should probably be THE defining aspect of the Feral rotation (in other words, we'd cost it as something like 75% of the Feral rotational complexity budget [this isn't a term we actually use]) and other parts of the spec (e.g. Bloodtalons, Savage Roar as a 3rd finisher) should probably be simpler as a result.

What are your plans for Jagged Wounds? It's currently the strongest talent of its tier, and generally the default choice for most players. However, it is a very non-interactive talent, as it takes away most of the opportunities to use Ferocious Bite, which reduces the decision making process to be "refresh SR or Rip, whichever is the lowest" most of the time.
Current plan is to probably reduce its affect on DoT duration - so something like reduce it from 33% to 20%, add a damage bonus to the talent if it's not in band for the throughput of a talent, and buff the spec if needed. It's really the combination of Jagged Wounds and Savage Roar that makes using combo points so difficult and pushes Ferocious Bite so much out of the rotation. Another option - put Jagged Wounds and Savage Roar on the same row.

General statement across classes: We want to limit how much of a impact any given talent has on the rotation, because if a spec ends up in a spot where the most complex talents and most rotationally demanding talents are the strongest due to tuning, we want to guarantee that the spec is still playable without a large amount of frustration. Current Feral unfortunately probably falls into the category of "if you mess up once, you are likely completely screwed" and that's something we want to address.
Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/6 ... 17/djbgcj7

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AsgardFM
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Re: We're doomed my feral friends

Post by AsgardFM » Fri Jul 07, 2017 6:41 am

I'm not sure we're doomed, we're just at a turning point for the spec.
Feral 'rotation' has been relatively the same since Cataclysm, as have our strengths and weaknesses. Sure, there's been ups and downs based on tuning (I recall Swipe being quite strong in BoT and BWD and now Brutal Slash being a thing) but we have primarily been applying SR to ourselves, applying bleeds with as much snapshot as possible then filling with Shred. The only problem is that encounters have evolved past the ability to do this every fight with more and more AoE targets/burst requirements and other reasons to move off the primary target.

Other specs have adapted with this, becoming able to deal with new requirements at the cost of "how we used to work". There's a few that dislike the new styles but it mostly works.
Ferals, for the most part, have resisted when Blizzard looks at changing the spec. We saw it during the Legion beta when we saw more damage pushed into Shred and Bite, only to be reverted shortly before launch after backlash.

The only way feral can remain viable is for change to happen, even at risk of alienating those that love the spec in its current form. If options to choose between a DD or DoT build existed they would have to be near perfectly balanced or the pack mentality will pick the strongest and and deviating will be considered bad. It's a hard area to get right

ellorien
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Re: We're doomed my feral friends

Post by ellorien » Fri Jul 07, 2017 5:17 pm

Oh, wow, new blue update (apparently inc 7.3):
Hi Cats,

We have a number of changes to Feral Druids coming soon. The general goals of these changes are:
1. Reduce (but not necessarily displace entirely) the dominance of the big three complexifying and powerful talents: Savage Roar, Jagged Wounds, and Bloodtalons. Each of those talents is (on live) winning by a large margin in terms of throughput against other talents on their rows.
2. Balance out the power level of the last 3 talent rows, allowing more talents builds to be viable.
3. Increase the skill floor and reduce how punishing it can be to error when playing the rotation.
4. Compensate for power-level-reductions of talents with baseline damage increase to the spec so that at the highest level, performance isn’t really affected, but the bottom of the spec is brought up.

The most major changes:

All damage done increased by 33%.
Jagged Wounds reduced to 20%. (down from 33%)
Savage Roar duration increased by 50% at all combo points. Damage bonus reduced to 15%. (down from 25%)
Bloodtalons damage bonus reduced to 25%. (down from 50%)

Looking back at the development of Feral Druid in Legion: when Savage Roar was moved from a baseline ability to the talent tree, in order to bring the power level of the ability closer to most talents (+25% damage to everything for a long duration is far stronger than most talents are), rather than reducing its damage bonus, its duration was significantly shortened instead. This contributed greatly to the overconstrained and overly punishing Feral rotation that you see on live today. Additionally, Jagged Wounds was added as a new talent, reducing the amount of free combo points Ferals had available to finishers such as Ferocious Bite (which was basically pushed out of the rotation entirely). Both talents probably would have been fine on their own, but taken together (because they were the strongest) at the live tuning values led to a more pressured Feral rotation than we felt was right.

Additionally, a few talents are being rearranged in the talent tree:

Jagged Wounds moved to lvl 75 row. (from lvl 90 row)
Savage Roar moved to lvl 90 row. (from lvl 75 row)
Brutal Slash moved to lvl 90 row. (from lvl 100 row)
Elune’s Guidance moved to lvl 100 row. (from lvl 90 row)

The primary gain here is moving Brutal Slash to a sort of multitarget/AOE lvl 90 talent row along with Sabertooth (which can be well-utilized in a sustained low-target situation), giving the lvl 90 row a solid talent for dungeons. For now, we want to go with an arrangement that keeps Jagged Wounds, Savage Roar, and Bloodtalons on separate rows so the current most common live build is still possible.

Other less major changes include quality of life and tuning adjustments to some talents to balance out the rows:

Prowl cooldown reduced to 6 sec (down from 10 sec) for all Druid specs.
Rebirth is castable in all forms, and consequently, is no longer affected by or consumes Predatory Swiftness.
Sabertooth damage bonus to Ferocious Bite increased to 20%.
Incarnation: King of the Jungle energy cost reduction reduced to 50% (down from 60%) and only allows the use of Prowl once. This it to balance out that talent row with the new Jagged Wounds and to reduce the frequency of Rake stuns in PvP while still allowing Incarnation to function as an effective Vanish.
Moment of Clarity now causes Omen of Clarity to trigger twice as often and increases the damage of the affected abilities by 25%. This is to better space out what is essentially a large energy proc and reduce slightly the impact that a single talent has on the resource income and pacing of the rotation.
Elune’s Guidance cooldown reduced to 30 sec (down from 45 sec) and combo points granted reduced to 5 + 5 over 5 seconds (down from 5 + 8 over 8 seconds).

Overall, with these changes, balance for the last 3 talent rows and consequently overall should be better in general. We expect the current most common build/playstyle of Jagged Wounds + Savage Roar + Bloodtalons to still remain one of the strongest builds, but it should no longer win by a huge margin over other competing talent builds and also should be a little less strenuous to play.

These changes should be available in an upcoming PTR build. As usual, we may make further adjustments – especially tuning – as PTR progresses.


Source: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/top ... 9?page=1#1
Feral Druid T21 Set Bonus
The current intention of the Feral 4 piece bonus is that you get a 100% free in every way (except a GCD) Ferocious Bite.

This may change as set bonuses go through some more iteration throughout the 7.3.0 development cycle.

Thank you for the feedback.
Source: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/top ... 389#post-1

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Konungr
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Re: We're doomed my feral friends

Post by Konungr » Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:47 pm

I'm really hoping with the 7.3 changes that Bloodtalons and Moment of Clarity will be within a close margin of each other. Bloodtalons is my single most hated aspect of the Feral Rotation, and I played Feral in Wrath...

Whitepaw
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Re: We're doomed my feral friends

Post by Whitepaw » Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:16 pm

Konungr wrote:I'm really hoping with the 7.3 changes that Bloodtalons and Moment of Clarity will be within a close margin of each other. Bloodtalons is my single most hated aspect of the Feral Rotation, and I played Feral in Wrath...
I agree completely. Going from a melee spec with strong off healing to having my heal be trivial and part of my dps rotation is just weird - and bad design.

But at least the devs are beginning to talk about one of the least used melee specs in the game right now. That's progress.

NB: Notice I wrote "One of the least used". So there are other melee specs, which are also not very popular. I know. But when I look around, I see feral usage at around the same level as in TBC. We are close to historically low numbers for feral.

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