SR not snapshotting in 7.3?

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Istaro
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SR not snapshotting in 7.3?

Post by Istaro » Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:57 pm

In PTR build 24727 the tooltip of Savage Roar was changed from "Finishing move that grants 15% increased damage to your Cat Form attacks for their full duration" to "Finishing move that grants 15% increased damage while in Cat Form". Sounds to me like they're removing snapshotting from it, leaving just TF and BT.

What do you guys think?

Nich
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Re: SR not snapshotting in 7.3?

Post by Nich » Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:49 pm

Is that the same set of patchnotes that said shred will do 0 damage, and catform no longer gives a movement speed boost, but has 2ppm? :D

ShmooDude
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Re: SR not snapshotting in 7.3?

Post by ShmooDude » Wed Aug 02, 2017 12:11 am

This is in fact correct, it does NOT snapshot on the PTR. Rake's damage goes up by 15% when SR is there, down when it's not.

The main thing I can think is that you'll now (might) want 100% SR uptime, instead of letting it drop sometimes to get up a snapshotted Rip before it expires since Rip and Rake now suffer a damage penalty every time they tick while the buff is down.

Also, Ferocious Bite still consumes 50 energy for full damage (and in game tooltip reflects this, not the 12.5 that was datamined).

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Re: SR not snapshotting in 7.3?

Post by Bralek » Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:06 am

ShmooDude wrote:Also, Ferocious Bite still consumes 50 energy for full damage (and in game tooltip reflects this, not the 12.5 that was datamined).
The datamining on wowhead show that the 12.5 is for level 40. After level 60, it's 25.

Istaro
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Re: SR not snapshotting in 7.3?

Post by Istaro » Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:08 pm

ShmooDude wrote:The main thing I can think is that you'll now (might) want 100% SR uptime, instead of letting it drop sometimes to get up a snapshotted Rip before it expires since Rip and Rake now suffer a damage penalty every time they tick while the buff is down.
On the other hand, I suspect that in the opener—in particular, if you start with 5 CP (or 4, given that you'll get one from Rake) from the previous mob—the extra Rip ticks you'd get from applying Rip before SR would easily outweigh the slightly reduced magnitude of your first few ticks. Especially because you could immediately follow that initial Rip by a 1-or-2 CP SR to cover you for the time it'll take you to get a 5 CP SR.

Nich
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Re: SR not snapshotting in 7.3?

Post by Nich » Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:37 pm

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/1066 ... es-in-730/
Feral Druid Changes in 7.3.0
Savage Roar will no longer be a "snapshot" mechanic damage buff, where it causes a damage over time ability to deal the bonus damage for its entire duration, like how Bloodtalons and Tiger's Fury work. This is a recent 7.3.0 change and is intended.

Snapshotting can be a contentious mechanic - some people like it, some people don't. However, snapshotting has been a mechanic on Feral for a long time, so we want to keep it in some form on the spec for now.

Savage Roar is not really an interesting place to have snapshotting, especially in 7.3.0 where its duration is being greatly increased and combo points won't be as scarce in a Jagged Wounds build. Keeping Savage Roar up 100% of the time will be much easier, and as a result, snapshotting there becomes a mechanic where you're only really given opportunities to fail with a larger than usual damage penalty. Contrast that with Bloodtalons and Tiger's Fury where - due to their limited nature - the player is instead given opportunities to maximize the benefit of those two buffs and gain more than usual benefit from a low-uptime snapshotting damage buff.

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Re: SR not snapshotting in 7.3?

Post by Fayled » Sun Aug 06, 2017 12:02 pm

I don't get their logic sometimes.

Here struggling Feral players we know keeping SR up can be hard, so we'll increase the duration.. but wait, now if you do let it drop because you make a bad CP choice, you'll be punished.

It's not even the first time they've suggested or wanted this, we hated the idea last time, we'll hate it again, only this time I think it's going to be forced upon us regardless of the backlash.

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Re: SR not snapshotting in 7.3?

Post by phalk » Sun Aug 06, 2017 6:19 pm

If I was the designer I'd get rid of all dots snapshoting in the game.

This is not a good mechanic whastoever. It's nebulous, hard to handle and overall brings more harm than good to the overall rotation.
Rogues don't have it anymore and it feels way better to play right now.

Istaro
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Re: SR not snapshotting in 7.3?

Post by Istaro » Sun Aug 06, 2017 6:55 pm

phalk wrote:If I was the designer I'd get rid of all dots snapshoting in the game.

This is not a good mechanic whastoever. It's nebulous, hard to handle and overall brings more harm than good to the overall rotation.
Rogues don't have it anymore and it feels way better to play right now.
Isn't it kind of the last remnant of complexity in the feral rotation? Perhaps if the entire game were to move decisively to a model of "all DPS rotations are simplistic but encounter design makes up for it", I could maybe accept that . . . as is though, if our rotation were dumbed down to that extent, we could no longer use the "it's not fair that our effort-reward ratio is unusually low" complaint ;)

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Re: SR not snapshotting in 7.3?

Post by Whitepaw » Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:37 am

A complaint which has been used a lot - to absolutely no avail :D

The other dps specs have also been made more complex. But while a rogue is typically centered around having 3 finishers, they get complexity by adding shorter CDs and debuffs. The level of complexity for Assassination Rogues was raised in the last patch (Toxic Blades).

I see the design decision to keep SR as rather stubborn by the devs. No matter which way you turn the issue, using that many combo points will always lead to a less flexible gameplay. We simply can not react as quickly as fx a rogue to changes in the situation. That is a rather large weakness.

Now, proponents of the SR/BT playstyle will say that this is the motivation for them to play the spec in the first place. I will say that this demands knowledge and familiarity with the encounter - to a degree where the goal ends up being how you optimise your rotation to the fight to max dps. Instead of optimising your performance to the fight to beat the encounter.

I also believe that this is one of the primary reasons why we don't see that many Ferals (if any) in progression raiding (as in, the race to world firsts): The "rotation" demands a lot of rather intimate knowledge about the encounter with the chosen tactic for your specific raid group to maximise the dps output.

A way to keep the rotation interesting and make it more flexible could be to use more short-timed debuffs on the target - like we had in WotLK. But the devs won't do that in this expansion.

Nich
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Re: SR not snapshotting in 7.3?

Post by Nich » Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:25 am

Whitepaw wrote:A way to keep the rotation interesting and make it more flexible could be to use more short-timed debuffs on the target - like we had in WotLK. But the devs won't do that in this expansion.
What else was there in WotLK? I'm scratching my head but don't remember.

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Re: SR not snapshotting in 7.3?

Post by Bralek » Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:01 am

"Finishing move that grants 15% increased damage while in Cat Form"
Does it mean that who loose 15% on our bleeds if we change form even if savage roar is active ?

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Re: SR not snapshotting in 7.3?

Post by AsgardFM » Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:40 am

Nich wrote:
Whitepaw wrote:A way to keep the rotation interesting and make it more flexible could be to use more short-timed debuffs on the target - like we had in WotLK. But the devs won't do that in this expansion.
What else was there in WotLK? I'm scratching my head but don't remember.
We had Mangle at 12 second duration, 30% bonus to all bleeds (bringing forth the demeaning role of 'mangle-bot') and 30-45 second duration Faerie Fire (Feral) (applying -12% armour). Abilities that essentially became maintenance debuffs and were pruned from the game along with the rest of the raid buff/debuffs.

Whitepaw
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Re: SR not snapshotting in 7.3?

Post by Whitepaw » Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:34 am

Just to clarify: I am not asking for the same stuff back as we had in WotLK.

But one approach to maintaining some degree of complexity could be to add debuffs that we apply to the target. It works fine for a lot of specs, like the Assassination Rogue.

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Re: SR not snapshotting in 7.3?

Post by Cluey » Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:13 am

Bralek wrote:
"Finishing move that grants 15% increased damage while in Cat Form"
Does it mean that who loose 15% on our bleeds if we change form even if savage roar is active ?
Correct.

This change is unlikely to be reverted, it was presented quite firmly.
It doesn't really make much difference to the 'rotation', you'll still aim to have as high an uptime as you can, the same with Rake and Rip. What it does do is remove the penalty from getting the timing wrong and having to choose between unbuffed Rip or Rip downtime while you build up more combo points.
Sure you can argue that you can plan to avoid that but it doesn't always work out that way, encounter mechanics find ways of screwing your best laid plans up.

What I don't like about it is that you need to keep it up while you're not on the boss now, say hiding behind pillars on Goroth or running away on Fallen Avatar. Currently you run out with your combo points and let SR drop, if needed, and just refresh SR when you go back in or to avoid capping energy.
However all reports from the PTR indicate that the new duration should make this easy so we shouldn't stress about it.

What we should stress about is how far from their stated goal they are on balancing the talent strengths. We're a few weeks away from expected live date and they are just number tweaks, but currently the intricacies of getting the snapshots correct are being thrown out by Shred spam. I shouldn't care about this, given how badly I've been playing recently, but I do.

As for removing Savage Roar altogether, I don't really care and when it comes down to it most of us won't. Players who've found this forum will play whatever is best anyway.
The calls to remove it because it's a maintenance buff are pretty hollow, if you break it down all buffs/debuffs are really. How well you keep them up is what differentiates player skill and DPS you achieve at the end of the fight. When it was added it was just a way to mimic Slice and Dice without just being an attack speed buff.

Nich
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Re: SR not snapshotting in 7.3?

Post by Nich » Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:36 am

Cluey wrote:When it was added it was just a way to mimic Slice and Dice without just being an attack speed buff.
I'd be ok with it being an attack speed buff in the future. It'd create an interesting synergy with the new Moment of Clarity.

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Re: SR not snapshotting in 7.3?

Post by Cluey » Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:50 am

Nich wrote:
Cluey wrote:When it was added it was just a way to mimic Slice and Dice without just being an attack speed buff.
I'd be ok with it being an attack speed buff in the future. It'd create an interesting synergy with the new Moment of Clarity.
Yes it would but our default attack speed is already crazy fast so I can't see that happening.
Really what they need to do, well needed to do ages ago really, is sort out haste effecting bleeds. At least then we wouldn't avoid haste if we can, that would also make M/OoC better too.

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